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  • 25/25 match different surname question

    I recently received my results for the 25 y-DNA marker upgrade. It shows two exact matches at 25/25 with a different surname from mine and one 24/25 match with the same surname. What is the latest thinking about exact matches at the 25/25 level with different surnames? Genealogically relevant? All I've been able to find so far on the Internet are a few dated articles which suggest that such matches might be genealogically relevant provided that one belongs to a rare haplotype. Where does one go to find out about the rarity of a given haplotype?

    Finally, I believe the 24/25 match with the same surname is related about 8 generations back according to the paper trail I have. Would the 24/25 match tend to support or confirm that level of relatedness?

  • #2
    You're right--the accuracy of matches increases exponentially with each additional panel tested, and 25 markers is often not enough to tell for sure.

    But in context, if you and your 24/25 friend feel fairly confident that your paper trails can support a relationship 8 generations ago, I'd say that's fairly persuasive. Not 100% conclusive, but maybe 85% persuasive, if you get my drift.

    I would always recommend upgrading to 67 markers to be certain, but I certainly understand that in many cases that just ain't gonna happen.

    The two exact matches at 25 with GD of 0 and different surname could be more problematic. Anecdotally I can say that I've had friends with exact matches at 25 that fall apart to like GD of 15 or worse at 67. However, I don't think there is anyone on earth who can say with a great deal of confidence or precision what the likelihood of that happening to you would be.

    I defer to your knowledge of the quality of the respective paper trails. If there are any striking geographical overlaps in their migration, or such like, it may be worth persuing. Only you could make that call. And again, frankly, I would go at least for the 67 markers if at all possible.

    Congratulations on your matches, though.



    Originally posted by ekc123 View Post
    I recently received my results for the 25 y-DNA marker upgrade. It shows two exact matches at 25/25 with a different surname from mine and one 24/25 match with the same surname. What is the latest thinking about exact matches at the 25/25 level with different surnames? Genealogically relevant? All I've been able to find so far on the Internet are a few dated articles which suggest that such matches might be genealogically relevant provided that one belongs to a rare haplotype. Where does one go to find out about the rarity of a given haplotype?

    Finally, I believe the 24/25 match with the same surname is related about 8 generations back according to the paper trail I have. Would the 24/25 match tend to support or confirm that level of relatedness?

    Comment


    • #3
      Double-matched at Y and at FF anybody?

      Has anybody achieved such a match outside of their own known family members?

      Comment


      • #4
        25 marker matches

        @Federator- thanks for the reply. What you are saying seems very logical. I have about an 85% certainty on the paper trail with my 24/25 and so I guess another 85% based on dna makes such a relation more likely. I'm currently waiting on a 37 marker upgrade in batch 418.

        @Roy -- I'm not sure I understand your question. I have only 2 exact matches at the 25/25 marker level, but both of them share a surname with each other, but have a different surname than I do. I have 5 matches at a genetic distance of 1 and only one of them has the same surname as I do. I have about 40 matches at a genetic distance of 2 and none of them shares my surname.

        Comment


        • #5
          Double-matched at Y and at FF anybody?

          Has anybody achieved such a match outside of their own known family members?
          Yes I have double match, Y and FF!

          Comment


          • #6
            Not Enough

            ekc123,

            Before you draw and conclusions base on your tests you and your matches need to have additional markers tested. Go for 67.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by royfarnol View Post
              Has anybody achieved such a match outside of their own known family members?


              I have 2 exact matches at 37 markers that I'm not even related to.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
                ekc123,

                Before you draw and conclusions base on your tests you and your matches need to have additional markers tested. Go for 67.
                But the thing of it is, even if they spend all that money and do that , there is still no gaurantee they will have anymore answers than they have now. That kind of situation is what has caused me to lose confidence in the whole thing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You are right. There is no guarantee. They can just give up and walk away or they can keep trying to learn more.

                  The more markers they test the higher the probability they will learn something. They could test to 111 markers and still have an exact match, but what would they know. If they don't continue to match they would know they didn't share a common paternal line ancestor within a genealogically meaningful time frame. If they do match they'll know they MAY share a common paternal ancestor, but they'll still have to find the paper trail if they want to proven the common ancestor. Of course this is true even if they have the same surname.

                  For me, the reason for using DNA testing was to try to determine which people I should try to connect with and which ones I should ignore. With that as my goal I have found DNA testing to be helpful. Before ordering the first test you need to set your goals. Then start learning if DNA testing can help you meet that goal. If you have realistic goals I think you'll be happy with the long term results. If your goals aren't realistic you won't be happy.

                  They have two choices. They can turn their backs and walk away or they can keep trying.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
                    You are right. There is no guarantee. They can just give up and walk away or they can keep trying to learn more.

                    The more markers they test the higher the probability they will learn something. They could test to 111 markers and still have an exact match, but what would they know. If they don't continue to match they would know they didn't share a common paternal line ancestor within a genealogically meaningful time frame. If they do match they'll know they MAY share a common paternal ancestor, but they'll still have to find the paper trail if they want to proven the common ancestor. Of course this is true even if they have the same surname.

                    For me, the reason for using DNA testing was to try to determine which people I should try to connect with and which ones I should ignore. With that as my goal I have found DNA testing to be helpful. Before ordering the first test you need to set your goals. Then start learning if DNA testing can help you meet that goal. If you have realistic goals I think you'll be happy with the long term results. If your goals aren't realistic you won't be happy.

                    They have two choices. They can turn their backs and walk away or they can keep trying.
                    Yes, but you left part out. They can turn their backs and walk away ( and save some money) or they can keep trying.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 507 View Post
                      But the thing of it is, even if they spend all that money and do that , there is still no gaurantee they will have anymore answers than they have now. That kind of situation is what has caused me to lose confidence in the whole thing.
                      That's especially true if you try to contact your matches and never hear a thing back. I have only 2 exact matches at 25/25, both with a different surname, and two 12/12 matches (one of them matches me at 24/25) with the same surname and so far, the folks with my surname haven't responded to my emails. Why would you want to pay for the test and then not follow up with matches? This is especially frustrating given my small number of matches. The paper trail on my dad's sad is pretty much nonexistent after my g-g-g grandpa.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No kidding; when I got my mitFSG results back, I was excited to have two matches. One of them responded right away, with an ancestor about the same time period as I; he was hoping I could help him, LOL. I did my best, of course.

                        But the other match, whom I could see from comments had a possible common maternal ancestor for both of us -- her ancestor was born in the 1500's -- never contacted us. We have an obscure little haplogroup, called H16. (At first with only HVR1 and "H," I had 9000+ matches.)

                        I wonder what happened to her; I actually hope she's alright. It's hard for me to picture why someone would go through this and not answer if they knew about it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Some people submit to the testing just as a favor to someone else and really would rather not be bothered with it again. Case in point: I match no one closer than 23/25. I was easily able to discover a complete 37 marker haplotype for one of the guys, and found out quickly that it was a phantom match--went to like 27/37.

                          The other guy I had to try harder to find. When I was finally able to track him down, I found that he had only participated in surname project as a favor to the administrator. He had a very old pedigree going back to 1500 or something and felt no need at all to submit to this testing for his own sake. He had all the information available, he figured, and any matches were highly unlikely to have any information he'd want or need. The administrator tells me he's incommunicado for some years now.

                          Not that it matters. Different surname anyhow. Without some compelling reason like a perfect match or shared surname/pedigree, "close matches" at 25 are quite next to meaningless. Statistically it seems very unlikely that this guy had any information that'd be of use to me. 'Course I only concluded that when I learned he had a different surname--and that was unreasonably difficult to track down.


                          Originally posted by ekc123 View Post
                          That's especially true if you try to contact your matches and never hear a thing back. I have only 2 exact matches at 25/25, both with a different surname, and two 12/12 matches (one of them matches me at 24/25) with the same surname and so far, the folks with my surname haven't responded to my emails. Why would you want to pay for the test and then not follow up with matches? This is especially frustrating given my small number of matches. The paper trail on my dad's sad is pretty much nonexistent after my g-g-g grandpa.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wilma Wildcat View Post
                            No kidding; when I got my mitFSG results back, I was excited to have two matches. One of them responded right away, with an ancestor about the same time period as I; he was hoping I could help him, LOL. I did my best, of course.

                            But the other match, whom I could see from comments had a possible common maternal ancestor for both of us -- her ancestor was born in the 1500's -- never contacted us. We have an obscure little haplogroup, called H16. (At first with only HVR1 and "H," I had 9000+ matches.)

                            I wonder what happened to her; I actually hope she's alright. It's hard for me to picture why someone would go through this and not answer if they knew about it.
                            Ironically, as was just complaining a few hours ago of not getting responses from my matches, I finally received an email from one of the matches. I had sent him an email back in May and had given up on the notion that I would hear from either of them. It should be interesting when I have a chance to compare notes with him, since he resides in a totally different part of the country.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh, well, then; good for you! I hope ours contacts us some day.

                              Comment

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