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  • #31
    >This data base is much more sophisticated than one of Finnish university.

    "large enough" would be more appropriate term

    >Did you use FBI database?

    since when they are interested in the details of phylogeny? ) Some authors from this organization published several forensic samples in the last years, that's all.

    >could you clarify the origins of G2a

    I think, the central Asian origin would be the most "parsimonious" explanation. It doesn't contradict the fact that several "root" types are found in Central China and some "peripheral" ones are frequent in Korea and Japan.

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    • #32
      Valery,

      I still have difficulty understanding how Central Asian G2a would end up among Ainu. Wouldn't an ancient South Siberian source with spread in both directions (to Japan and to Central Asia) be a simpler explanation? Does sequence diversity within the subclades give any information on this?

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      • #33
        Jeff, I suspect G2a is not the only one marker shared by Central Asians and Ainu. Something on this topic you'll find in Tanaka's paper. I don't think I can answer your question.

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        • #34
          Tanaka's paper shows a high incidence of G2a in Buryats and Tuvinians. The G2a1 subclade is the one seen in the Ainu. I don't see anything inconsistent with the idea that G2 originated in the Mongolia/Baikal region and spread from there, but I'll refrain from further speculation about that at this point until more data is available.

          I still think that it is interesting that A,B,C and D (as well as X) all made it to North America but that G did not, especially since it is found in what is believed to be the source area for the North American migration. This could be due to random loss of a small clade during the migration of small numbers of people, but it may also indicate that G is a relatively late arrival in the area compared to the others. If so, where did it come from? Or is it just an outgrowth of M* that became very successful for some reason? More speculation.

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          • #35
            Vraatyah,

            Thank You so much for defining it even more. I'm really happy that I meet such interesting people here.

            FBI data base: forget about it. I found some web site with database which required installation of programme, and they mentioned FBI, so I...

            dentate: In the article about haplotype diversity in Siberian population. It is indicated that nucleotide diversity in Siberians are similar to Central Asians, but haplotype diversity is higher in Central Asians (not particularly G2, but in general).

            http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/siberia.pdf


            G2a-Tanaka's article shows low frequency of G2a in Tuvinians and quite low in Buryats-2.78 % and 5% (comparing to C and D). G2a1 is 5.56% is Tuvinians and absent in Buryats.

            Overall Southern Siberian frequency of G2a is 2.4%. Central Asian 8+%. (Uighurs more than 10%, Kazakhs 9.3%, Uzbeks %), Ainu 3.9%.

            It is quite possible that Ainu got G2A through Siberians or Koreans and Chinese.

            X: I read the article "Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X" :

            http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1180497

            They came to conclusion that :

            "First, haplogroup X variation is completely captured by two ancient clades that display distinctive phylogeographic patterns—X1 is largely restricted to North and East Africa, whereas X2 is spread widely throughout West Eurasia. Second, it is apparent that the Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs derive from X2 by a unique combination of five mutations. Third, the few Altaian (Derenko et al. 2001) and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster, and they are more likely explained by recent gene flow from Europe or from West Asia. "


            There are earlier articles (2001, 2000?) on this topic which indicate the opposite but i could not access full text, only abstracts.

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            • #36
              I just re-read Tanaka's article, because I got curious about Ainu.

              The percentage of Sequence Match identities Table 4:

              The closest Ainu matches are Koryaks (0.45-46), Itelmens (0.26), Koreans (0.25), Chinese (0.18-0.21), Central Asians (0.19), Kazakhs (0.16), Buryats (0.15). Tuvinians sequences are distant match (0.05)


              Also Tanaka's articles show lower G2a1 frequency in Central Asians-7.35 than other sources on Central Asians, especially in the second group CA2, where he included Altai population from Siberia.

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              • #37
                I think that the key phrase in that paper is that "the phylogeographic pattern of mtDNA differentiation in East Asian and Siberian populations is still poorly understood."

                However, note also the comment on G2:

                "In addition to its considerable age, haplogroup G2 has a striking phylogeographic distribution, restricted to Central and East Asia, being found in Central Asians, Han Chinese, Tibetans and Ainu."

                Again, if this applies to G2 overall (not specifically G2a1 subclades), the phylogeographic distribution is still centered on Siberia, with Central Asia at its western edge, making Siberia a more plausible source. The age might mean that subclades like G2a are of Central Asian origin but you have yet to propose a way in which G2a maternal lines from Central Asia ended up in ancient Japan. And again, I think it is striking that no G ended up in North America, if it is truly ancient and found in the source populations.

                I have no clue how to interpret "nucleotide diversity" vs. "haplotype diversity" in terms of coalescence age. I'm scratching my head over that one.

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                • #38
                  Another comment: Valery has noted the similarity of my wife's sequence to a few Sojot sequences from this and other papers; the phylogenetic tree drawn here shows only one person with G2 and a 129 mutation, and that person is Sojot. Since these appear to be RFLP confirmed haplogroups, that strongly supports Valery's proposed G2 classification for her, at least. I note that the Sojot samples originated in the area west of Baikal, which corresponds to the Olkhon region of origin for my wife's maternal line, though she is not aware of any Sojot connections--will ask around in her mother's family, in case this stirs up any old memories. The Buryats are certainly a polyphyletic group anyway.

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                  • #39
                    >I have no clue how to interpret "nucleotide diversity" vs. "haplotype diversity" in terms of coalescence age

                    haplotype diversity (aka gene diversity) is the probability of two random haplotypes from a sample to be different from each other. Nucleotide diversity is the average "difference" per site between two random sequences from given population. Although both statistics measure the amount of genetic variation in a population (and this is somehow related to the time interval these changes have been "accumulated") neither is useful in the calculation of "ages". What is usually called "age" of a haplogroup in particular population depends on the form of its phylogenetical tree in that population.

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                    • #40
                      Soyots are one of the Buryat' tribes. For a long time "Soyot" was considered not a separate nation, but a branch of Buryats (Sayan mountains region). The difference is that Soyots have ancient Turkic origin. Soyot language was replaced by Buryat during natural assimilation process. There are no "pure" Soyots anymore. All Soyots are heavily admixed with Buryats.

                      G2a could have travelled through China to Korea. Koreans live n close proximity with Ainu.

                      About G2: I looked through articles about ancient mtDNA. One of the articles describes analysis for HVR-I of ancient Kazakh remains- the fifteenth century BC to the fifth century AD.

                      http://www.upf.edu/cexs/recerca/bioe...za-Fox-RSL.pdf

                      "The haplogroup composition differs slightly between modern Kazakhs and prehistoric samples that originate from prior to the seventh century BC, with variations attributable to time structure and differences in sample
                      sizes (table 5). Haplogroups present in modern Kazakhs, such as B, F, C, Z, D, R, J and Y, were not observed in the prehistoric Kazakhs."

                      G2 was present, when classical Siberian D (highest frequency in Baikal region?) was abscent.

                      "The latter westward movement of Asian nomads, such as that of the Hsiung-nu, estimated to have taken place around the sixth century BC (Ismagulov 1982), corresponds to the period in which the earliest east Eurasian sequences are found among our ancient samples.In addition, the presence of a haplogroup A sequence found in Siberia (Starikovskaya et al. 1998) and a G2 sequence found in Chinese Han (Yao et al. 2002) points to Siberia and Mongolia as a possible source of such migrations."

                      One of my matches was ancient Hsiung-nu from Elgin Gol (Mongolia).

                      Vraatyah: Do you know where I can compare my husband's STR? I was browsing for a databse, but with no success. He belongs to R1b (M343). Thank You in advance.
                      Last edited by Electra; 21 November 2005, 02:58 AM.

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                      • #41
                        >G2 was present, when classical Siberian D (highest frequency in Baikal region?) was abscent.

                        interesting observation

                        >where I can compare my husband's STR? I was browsing for a databse, but with no success. He belongs to R1b (M343). Thank You in advance.

                        I would say there is no scientific database of microsatellites on the web because most authors test samples for the set of a few strs. As to yhrd I don't think it's what you need. Maybe smgf.org? Finally, you can subscribe to this list:

                        http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/othe...ALOGY-DNA.html

                        Valery

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                        • #42
                          Electra,

                          I do agree that the Buryats are plainly polyphyletic and that they no doubt have incorporated Turkic and almost certainly Evenk elements as well. I am aware that certain Evenks adopted their neighbors' Buryat language and culture. And, Turkic and Mongol tribes in what is now Mongolia and Central Asia have traded languages and cultures back and forth for a long time. It is interesting that you have that ancient Mongolian match--Mongolia was of course the original homeland of the Turks.

                          Koreans may live close to Ainu, but are themselves of multiple origin, with migration into the peninsula having occurred after Han dynasty times from what is now Manchuria (Chinese called them the Fu-yi, I believe). I'd bet that the G2 connection relates to the Ainu from the Amur basin at the time the ancestors of some Koreans lived there. But the whole Korean/Northeast Asian/Korean connection is a topic for another day!

                          My wife will be surprised to hear that Soyots have such a close relationship to the Buryats, but she did not know her mother's family that well and she will ask around. Her father's family was from Ust Orda, but there are unfortunately no surviving male relatives. One paternal ancestor bore the name Bulagatov, so we assumed that was the tribal connection on that side.

                          The males in my mother's family have been predicted as a Y group P* by FTDNA; I am waiting for the haplogroup SNP confirmation; but if it is true, then I may actually be related to you too, as Central Asia is the probable place of origin of that group. I have been waiting for the SNP since April but am promised an answer by Wednesday...

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                          • #43
                            Haplogroup is L3d

                            My FTDNA mtDNA results:
                            HVR1 - 16124C, 16223T, 16319A
                            HVR2 - 73G, 150T, 152C, 263G, 315.1C, 522-, 523-

                            No matches so far - anyone close?

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                            • #44
                              L3 Group

                              I have some of the markers listed above for L3 haplogroup.

                              These are my HVR1 markers:
                              16172C, 16183C, 16189C, 16223T, 16320T, 16519C

                              I tested through National Genographic. I don't have additional markers but understand that I can have my data further analyzed which I am considering.

                              Any other ideas what this info may mean?

                              AYWalton

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