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Is L21 exclusively Celtic ?

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  • Is L21 exclusively Celtic ?

    Is the L21 subclave of R1B1 almost always celtic? If so are subclaves downstream also celtic?

  • #2
    The reason I am asking this question is that I trace my family back into France via Quebec. My deepclade shows L21 which was a surprise because I associate L21 with the Irish,Scots and Brits. Apparently the Celts arose in France and Germany at around the same time. The celtic tribes in France were called the Gauls. I was wondering if the Gauls where my ancestors? As a school boy I had to translate the Gallic wars from Latin to English. Was I rooting for the wrong side? Hence the question, is L21 only the celts.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
      The reason I am asking this question is that I trace my family back into France via Quebec. My deepclade shows L21 which was a surprise because I associate L21 with the Irish,Scots and Brits. Apparently the Celts arose in France and Germany at around the same time. The celtic tribes in France were called the Gauls. I was wondering if the Gauls where my ancestors? As a school boy I had to translate the Gallic wars from Latin to English. Was I rooting for the wrong side? Hence the question, is L21 only the celts.
      There's a big debate about which subclades of R1b-M269 might be considered Celtic vs. Germanic or even if it's possible to say that. Some people get very upset by the idea that subclades which arose a few thousand years ago can be isolated to one ethnic or linguistic group. And they have a point. No subclade can be exclusively identified with one ethnic or linguistic group.

      However, I think it's safe to say that R1b-L21 is found at its highest levels in the British Isles and northwestern Europe. Take a look at the Google maps showing the ancestry of the members of the R-L21 Plus Project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results If you zoom in on the map for continental Europe, you'll see that northern France and western Germany have especially high levels.

      I know from discussion on various genetic genealogy lists that variance calculations for R1b-L21 results seem to indicate that it's oldest in France. That implies that L21 arose in that area and spread into the British Isles.

      You may want to join the R-L21 Plus Project and its associated Yahoogroup for discussion, if you haven't already. You can join the Yahoogroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join
      Last edited by MMaddi; 8 May 2011, 02:13 PM.

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      • #4
        Thank You for that information. I have sent a join request for the L21 on FTDNA but will look into the Yahoo group also. In addition I upgraded to 67 marker which was not part of my original plan. I have no matches at the lower markers so it would not be helpful when looking for matches but thought it might be helpful to know in the future.

        I also considered the idea of back migrations since the Brits and Irish took control and immigrated to a part of France in Brittany. To check for this I did a highly controlled and sophisticated piece of research. I took out a phone book (lol). I found a web site that shows a distribution of surnames in any particular country. My surname is the 71st most common surname in France. It has a great deal of distribution across the country.Due to the high distribution across the country and the fact there are none near the Britanny area I concluded it may be native to France..Well there may be a few holes in this research
        Anyway thank you.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
          As a school boy I had to translate the Gallic wars from Latin to English. Was I rooting for the wrong side?
          Hilarious! That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

          Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
          There's a big debate about which subclades of R1b-M269 might be considered Celtic vs. Germanic or even if it's possible to say that. Some people get very upset by the idea that subclades which arose a few thousand years ago can be isolated to one ethnic or linguistic group. And they have a point. No subclade can be exclusively identified with one ethnic or linguistic group.
          Languages can die out when communities become assimilated into another population, but DNA carries on. For example, modern day Turks are genetically similar to the surrounding peoples, but now all speak a language that wasn't introduced to Anatolia until the Middle Ages.

          I'm reading a book right now on the history of the Baltic peoples. One of the introductory chapters is a review of the literature on Indo-European migrations, just as a necessary background for the rest of the book. Many of the theories on who migrated where, which archaeological civilization is identified with whom, and who were the people referred to by different names in ancient and medieval sources are based on pretty scant evidence. There are many things we'll never know for certain. It was written before much of the recent genetic anthropological methods were being used, but it's still difficult to figure out populations that became admixed long before the advent of recorded history.

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          • #6
            Hilarious! That's the funniest thing I've read all day.
            Thank you. It's hard these days to fit a Latin joke
            into a conversation.
            I have tried to read some of that research as you mentioned.For me it's quite a bit to grasp in a few readings but still quite fascinating.
            I think I will focus on the Gauls (who were celtic) and written records exist . Of course with a Roman slant since the Gauls din't write. Much of the Celtic Internet writings do not even mention them.

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            • #7
              Database is heavily favored though.

              Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
              There's a big debate about which subclades of R1b-M269 might be considered Celtic vs. Germanic or even if it's possible to say that. Some people get very upset by the idea that subclades which arose a few thousand years ago can be isolated to one ethnic or linguistic group. And they have a point. No subclade can be exclusively identified with one ethnic or linguistic group.

              However, I think it's safe to say that R1b-L21 is found at its highest levels in the British Isles and northwestern Europe. Take a look at the Google maps showing the ancestry of the members of the R-L21 Plus Project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results If you zoom in on the map for continental Europe, you'll see that northern France and western Germany have especially high levels.

              I know from discussion on various genetic genealogy lists that variance calculations for R1b-L21 results seem to indicate that it's oldest in France. That implies that L21 arose in that area and spread into the British Isles.

              You may want to join the R-L21 Plus Project and its associated Yahoogroup for discussion, if you haven't already. You can join the Yahoogroup at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join
              I think that this alone is a key factor when measuring L21 and geographic locations. The database is heavily tilted toward the British Isles and NW Europe. I think that in the Sicily database there are five of us who have tested positive for L21, where a year ago there were none. I also don't believe that many others have taken the deep clade test for whatever reasons.

              I recently watched the film "Gattaca"- and wonder if/when the mapping of our genome as a form of identification will come to fruition. Then and only then will many of our issues will be resolved. Of course, all of this goes out the window if Crick's theory of seeding is actually correct!
              Last edited by Zaru; 9 May 2011, 11:51 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
                Thank You for that information. I have sent a join request for the L21 on FTDNA but will look into the Yahoo group also. In addition I upgraded to 67 marker which was not part of my original plan. I have no matches at the lower markers so it would not be helpful when looking for matches but thought it might be helpful to know in the future.

                I also considered the idea of back migrations since the Brits and Irish took control and immigrated to a part of France in Brittany. To check for this I did a highly controlled and sophisticated piece of research. I took out a phone book (lol). I found a web site that shows a distribution of surnames in any particular country. My surname is the 71st most common surname in France. It has a great deal of distribution across the country.Due to the high distribution across the country and the fact there are none near the Britanny area I concluded it may be native to France..Well there may be a few holes in this research
                Anyway thank you.
                Hi, Brunetmj. I am the Group Administrator for FTDNA's R-L21 Plus Project. I agree with Mike Maddi's earlier post. I have known Mike since 2006. He is a very reliable person.

                Anyway, to join the R-L21 Plus Project, go to your "myFTDNA" pages and click on "Join Projects" on the left side of the screen. Scroll down to Y Haplogroup Projects and click on "R29" (that number is subject to change, the "R" is what is important). Then scroll down until you find "R-L21Plus" and click on it. Finally, click on the little orange "Join" button in the lower right.

                That should do it.

                Mike was right about the L21 haplotypes in France being the oldest anywhere. That is an indication that L21 did not originate in the British Isles but went there from the Continent.

                I have been told by others that the recently released book, The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and Dr. James Wilson (a geneticist), theorizes that L21 was brought to Britain by the Beaker folk. I haven't read the book yet myself, so I cannot say for sure, but others have noticed that the Beaker folk got to Britain about the right time to have been carriers of L21. It is also possible that the Beaker folk brought an early Celtic language to the British Isles.

                That was the theory of the famous French archaeologist Henri Hubert, anyway, and I own and have read his book, History of the Celtic People.

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                • #9
                  Than You for all that information. Very Interesting. I have joined the L21 plus project and in addition I upgraded to the 67 marker test. My deepclade should be done fairly soon. It's been delayed with it's due date moved twice. Hopefully this week. I seen some markers downstream from L21 but cant find any helpful information on them.
                  Anyway thanks again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
                    Than You for all that information. Very Interesting. I have joined the L21 plus project and in addition I upgraded to the 67 marker test. My deepclade should be done fairly soon. It's been delayed with it's due date moved twice. Hopefully this week. I seen some markers downstream from L21 but cant find any helpful information on them.
                    Anyway thanks again.
                    Thanks for joining!

                    We have quite a few members with ancestry in Normandy, including another whose ancestor came from Dieppe.

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                    • #11
                      I don't want to hijack this thread, but I've got a question regarding the previous posts. I've seen several posts/webpages/forums recommending people to join projects on FTDNA, but I've seen very few reasons why. Why should I join R-L21-Plus? Is it just to help the people researching L21 and beyond, or will it help me find out more about where my paternal line is from?

                      Before anyone misunderstands, I would like to point out that this question is purely out of curiosity, not critisism.

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                      • #12
                        The immediate reason is that it could be helpful to those studying L21. The more we know about the distribution of L21, both geographically & ethnically, the more likely we are to create better theories about the subclades origins. This also creates a group ready to be tested for new SNPs downstream of L21, as they are found.

                        The long run benefit is for all of us (including the participants). I visualize a day when SNPs can be used as guideposts (rather than y-str data) all the way down to tiny subclades that may have started as recently as within the last 1000 years. Once we reach that resolution, if you & another person share the same subclade, you will know that your MRCA lived within the last 1000 years. If you don't share the same subclade, you will know that the MRCA is more distant than that. SNPs give solid yes/ no answers about how closely related patrilines are. Y-str data merely gives likelihoods & when you get more distant than high resolution relevant matches, you really can't say which tested subjects are more closely related.

                        Timothy Peterman

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