how common is uncommon?

[Aragon]

out of curiosity, i'm just wondering if there are folks out there that have uncovered some uncommon dys values? i have a repeat of 16 on 448 and copies of 7-9 on 459. according to sorenson's database, there are 30 individuals with 16 repeats on 448 and 233 individuals on 459. probably means squat but just interesting. i have a few matches who exhibit the same values on ysearch: R7B9F

[Frederator]

As far as I know, the %'s on that Sorenson page are the best indicator of how unusual they are.

And just my opinion here, but I wouldn't fixate too much on a few unusual values. There's not really much of anything that you can learn from individual values in isolation. There's just too much random variability involved in mutations to say anything meaningful about mutations on a single marker.

You have to look at matches for your haplotype as a whole.

Some folks will say that if you're part of a larger group of more-likely-than-not related folks, certain individual markers might provide some kind of clue about how closely or remotely each of those folks is related to one another.

I know of at least one case where a guy is a 100% perfect match for another dude, same surname, in England--but whose paper trail makes it clear that there is no possible common ancestor more recent than 1600. Yet somehow he's like GD of 5 at 67 against a guy who definitely connects to him from colonial times in the U.S.

That scenario is clearly an outlier from the typical mutation rate. There are only two scenarios that can explain that outcome:

1. Neither American 'A' or the Brit had any mutations at all, meaning that all 5 mutations belong to American 'B'. For 1 line to experience that many mutations in a 67 marker haplotype is supposed to take like 500 years--which makes no sense at all given their iron-clad paper trails. American 'B' must be some incredibly odd statistical outlier, mutating far faster than the norm.

2. The lineages of American 'A' and / or the Brit may have had some coincidental 'back mutations' in the intervening generations since all 3 men's common ancestor, and American 'B's mutation rate is actually within the normal range. But the odds of this seem somewhere in the neighborhood of winning the lottery--though maybe the cr*ppy scratch-off stuff instead of the atavistic monsters like MegaMillions, etc.

So, even if you're lucky enough to get a group of solid matches with fellas with strong pedigrees, there is still a limit on the certainty you can take in evaluating the results.

out of curiosity, i'm just wondering if there are folks out there that have uncovered some uncommon dys values? i have a repeat of 16 on 448 and copies of 7-9 on 459. according to sorenson's database, there are 30 individuals with 16 repeats on 448 and 233 individuals on 459. probably means squat but just interesting. i have a few matches who exhibit the same values on ysearch: R7B9F

[Aragon]

Thanks so much Frederator, what a thorough and insightful response. i hear yeah, there probably isn't much to tell as you have said about indiviudal markers in relation to a full haplotype.

i guess my curiosity is probably more around population genetics more than finding a close kin. i just found it a bit interesting that the individuals i have uncovered exhibiting these particular values tend to belong (including yours truly) to haplogroup O. what may even seem O1a. However, when i first saw these individuals, just based on their last names and possibly paternal ancestry locations (if identified that is) are candidates i would least suspect to be in this haplogroup. i found another (the only one) 3 gd match on ancestry.com who exhibit the same values very with seemingly English origin.

it would be interesting to know how each of these individuals would have reacted after having learned their origins are Hg O. i was not surpised as my paternal ancestry could be traced back to the philippines.

[Frederator]

Thanks for the further explanation. For what you're looking for, I'd google info on your haplogroup and its defining SNP. Or maybe start another thread on this form with the title specifying the haplotype or defining SNP.

I'm afraid I rather threw you off track by talking about haplotype analysis, then. There's really very little that you can say with certainty about deep ancestry based on haplotype, and I think the discussion of Americans 'A' and 'B' and Mr. Brit may give you a flavor as to why.

I myself don't spend much time on haplogroups or SNP, cause I'm more interested in the paper-trail end of the spectrum.

I guess I'd just leave one other thought: I think these commercial databases are skewed with people of British Isles and northern Europe origin, with varieties of R1b2 being almost obnoxiously over-represented. So the info you're finding, unless it's outside of an 'O'-specific dna project or something, is likely to be unhelpfully distorting the frequences of those allele counts.

Best of luck.

[Aragon]

no worries at all. i think i learned a lot from your explanation. unfortunately, there isn't a lot of literature out there about O's. there are just very few people tested. i would imagine this would be the case for other haplogroups as well out side of r1b or i1a. because of this there really isn't that high of a resultion in terms of results especially in O subclades. that's just the nature of the beast i suppose.

best of luck to you as well.