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J1e (J1c3) in Austria

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  • J1e (J1c3) in Austria

    Hi to all!

    My name is Marco, i live in Vienna and i would like to know more about my family's origins. I recently received my 67 marker results and my ysearch id is TEBYX and you'll find me also on ftdna's j-group under E13058 in the big J1c3 cluster. I've tested P58+, M367-, M368-, M369- so i am a J1e (J1c3) and should be L147+ (the following snps are currently being tested: L147.1, L222.2, L65.2, L92, L93, L174.1). My paternal lineage is from Austria (region of Styria) and we have a family tradition that might point to a possible jewish ancestry but these are only rumours. That's the reason why i would verify this possibility (amongst all the others).

    The first thing that i noticed was the fact that there only a few J1 cases in Austria. I don't know if you can rely on the numbers of www.eupedia.com but according to this website J1 has 0% in Austria and only 0,05 % in Southern Germany where supposedly my more distant ancestors originally came from in order to settle in Austria (many austrian families have german roots).

    I only have three 12 marker matches on the ftdna database (no surname match though).
    One is from Southern Germany without any known jewish background but bearing a german family name (that could be also ashkenazic).
    My second match is of german jewish roots being a selfreported cohen and bearing a typical cohen family name.
    The third match's origin are also german though the guy refused to answer my mail. He is unfortunatley also my closest and only 67 marker match (genetic distance -6). But also his family name is german and also ashkenazic.

    The problem is that many ashkenazic family names are also very common in german families! The other problem is that family names were only adopted by ashkenazic families in the 18th century when they were forced to by statal authorities (this might also explain the lack of surname matches!).

    on smgf i have many matches (i only report the highest):

    22/28 (Billikopf, Bielikov from Russia, jewish)
    22/28 (Patterson, USA)
    19/24 (Unknown, Jordan)
    21/26 (Zebary, Iraq)
    17/21 (Herbst, USA) > the family name points also to an ashkenazic ancestry!
    21/27 (Abrams, USA) > the family name points to a jewish ancestry!
    21/27 (Zerafa, Malta)
    21/27 (Unknown, Iran)
    20/26 (Miller, USA)
    21/28 (Henlin or Henlein, USA but originally from Germany) > name points to a possible ashkenazic background!
    21/28 (Quirke, England and Ireland)
    21/28 (Unknown, Palestine)
    21/28 (Salazar, USA-Colorado and USA-New Mezico) > name points to a possible sephardic background!
    21/28 (Kazemi, Iran)
    21/28 (Al-Jbour, Jordan)
    21/28 (Al-Rufou, Jordan)
    21/28 (Kay, Lithuania; Karnowsky, Lithuania, jewish)

    I've read that J1e in Europe could also be neolithic but if that's the case i only have one question: why are there only a few reported cases in Central Europe and why do i have near eastern matches as well?

    Maybe i should add that i closely match the eCMH. The only difference is my dys# 385b: 18 instead of 15...

    I would be very glad if anyone had suggestions or corrections to make!

    Happy new year!

    Marco

  • #2
    Marco:

    I'm no expert on Jewish J1. There is plenty of J1 in Italy, so it is also very possible that somebody moved up from Italy sometimes from the Roman empire on and settled in Germany/Austria. As usual, without a match based on many markers, it's hard to say anything precisely. 12 markers are simply too few.

    If you look at your near matches (ie distance of 1 or 2) it is interesting to note that most of them are indeed Jewish. However, once again, this must be taken with a grain of salt. A lot of Ashkenazi people have tested, but much fewer Mediterraneans have, so the near matches may simply reflect the bias in who has tested.

    You also have a 41/3 match, which could be much closer than a 12/0.

    cacio

    PS btw my real name is Marco too

    Comment


    • #3
      Roman J1 carriers in Central Europe

      Hi Marco,

      thanks for your reply! i also thought that J1 in Central Europe could go back to roman times but if a roman J1 carrier moved to Germany/Austria back in those days shouldn't i have at least some distant italian matches as well? i don't know how many italians tested with ftdna but there should be at least some americans with italian origins that turned out to be J1???

      Comment


      • #4
        1 or 2 thousand years is a long time, matches will be very distant. In addition, not very many italians have tested, especially given the fact that Italy is relatively more diverse than other parts of Europe. So it's always possible that no matches are found. (On an unrelated note, I have no matches either, the close is 12/2, though I belong to a rare haplogroup).

        That's not to discount the Jewish hypothesis - with J1 the hypothesis is always likely. Just that one cannot jump into it with great confidence yet without further information.

        cacio

        Comment


        • #5
          I keep wonderin'

          I am 25% (autosomally) what my maternal grandfather was, and he was Austrian. The rest of me is an assortment of northwestern European. I don't have living relatives on his side, so I can't have someone have their DNA tested. He was rather swarthy, although his eyes were green, as I recall. Although he came from Steyr in Upper Austria (Ober Oesterreich), I notice it is on the ethnic boundary with an historical Slavic expansion. Then too, Steyr was a manufacturing center/steel smelting et al. So it attracted workers from all over. And I think historically, nobility from the state of Styria (Steiermark) took it over in medieval times. So just about any origin for him from within the greater Autrian Empire (pre WWI) would seem possible. His surname was Schrotz. Apparently his male descendant line (including his brother's) went extinct here in the USA. He only had one child; a daughter.
          Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 2 January 2011, 07:13 PM.

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          • #6
            Hi Marco Antonio

            There were about six million Jews murdered in various concentration camps. Maybe you would have had lots of YDNA matches today if it weren't for that. That could be why you have so few matches and spread far and wide from Iraq to Ireland. Your closest match, so far, is Jewish, and you have a family legend of being Jewish at some point in the past.

            And even if it was from a man who moved up to Germany/Austria from Italy, be aware that when Rome attacked Jesusalem (in 70 A.D. ?) the Roman soldiers captured the Jews and took them to Rome/Italy.
            Last edited by rainbow; 3 January 2011, 12:30 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              rainbow,

              thank you for your suggestion... i recognize that there are many possibilities and that genetic genealogy is not that simple you might assume...

              especially if you belong to a for your region atypical and rare haplogroup...

              Comment


              • #8
                You're welcome. Or maybe your haplogroup is from one of the Neolithic farmers that moved from the Fertile Crescent (Middle East) to Europe many thousands of years ago before Judaism existed.
                FTDNA probably has at least one J YDNA Project Group you can join for free.

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