L21+ but not WAMH or NIALL.

[Zaru]

I have noticed that FTDNA has started putting tags on the home pages with the demarcation of WAMH or Niall of the Nine...

If one does not have either would this mean that British Isle/UK/Irish origins are doubtful?

My ancestral origins matches are all insignificant with the highest match percentage at 0.9% with Belgium. McEwan had me pinned on Frisian 2 several years ago prior to L21 testing. I really do not know specifically what Frisian 2 would be other than coastal Denmark down Belgium/Holland.

Can anyone clarify any of these points for me?

[Frederator]

Well, just one opinion: This just points to the very limited connection to STR haplotypes and SNP status in an extremely diverse population.

Last I looked, the "Frisian" haplotypes were connected to U106, which seems directly in opposition to your L21+ status. My guess is, however, that your haplotype, like mine, is closer to the periphary than the center of its SNP cohorts. That may just be an unavoidable statistical fact and we should probably not spend too much time thinking about it.

On the other hand, I have heard of at least one case where a clerical goofup by the company resulted in a U106+ guy incorrectly being told he was L21+ for a number of years.

I have noticed that FTDNA has started putting tags on the home pages with the demarcation of WAMH or Niall of the Nine...

If one does not have either would this mean that British Isle/UK/Irish origins are doubtful?

My ancestral origins matches are all insignificant with the highest match percentage at 0.9% with Belgium. McEwan had me pinned on Frisian 2 several years ago prior to L21 testing. I really do not know specifically what Frisian 2 would be other than coastal Denmark down Belgium/Holland.

Can anyone clarify any of these points for me?

[rivergirl]

FTDNA have been putting these on home pages for years.
They are usually based on the first 12 markers.
See FAQs
http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/sea...e&c=&o=0&ps=25


What does the WAMH badge on my personal page mean? faq id: 410

The Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype Match badge on the myFTDNA Home page of your myFTDNA account means that you match or are close to the historic Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH) that has been reported in Y-chromosome population genetics studies.


The first studies referencing the WAMH were published in 2001. Based on six STR (short tandem repeat) markers, they noted a distinctive motif (haplotype) that along with its near matches (a genetic distance of 1) represented an over whelming number of European and even Western Asian Y-chromosome lineages. The motif has since been noted for its presence in or absence from populations in many journal articles.

Today we know, thanks to superior levels of STR testing and advances in haplogroup testing, that this motif, even at 12 STR markers, does not represent a single founder dating to the last ice age but many different lineages within haplogroup R1b. Due to the rapid population expansion that took place at the end of the last ice age, these lineages at low levels of testing have experienced convergence. That is, they have mutated to look alike even though they do not share even middling deep ancestry.

Relevant to our customers, this 12 marker haplotype represents about 1.3% of European male lines. This is why we recommend that those who have the WAMH use the Y-DNA67 test to confirm genealogical relationships unless they have a rare surname.



What does the Niall of the Nine Hostages badge on my personal page mean? faq id: 409

The Niall of the Nine Hostages Match badge on the myFTDNA Home page of your myFTDNA account means that you match or are close to the historic Irish Modal Haplotype (IMH) that was documented in a 2006 Y-chromosome population genetics study.
Niall

In 2006, a group of researchers explored the frequency of haplogroup R1b and the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH) in Ireland. They showed that haplogroup R1b accounts for 85.4% of the lineages in Ireland, but that a distinctive haplotype is found there at a frequency of 8.2 to 21.5%. The authors attribute this Y-chromosome signature to Niall of the Nine Hostages, a medieval warlord.

Niall of the Nine Hostages received his name from the taking of hostages as a strategy for playing mental havoc upon his opponent chieftains. He is known in folklore as a raider of the British and French coasts. Supposedly slain in the English Channel or in Scotland, his descendants were the most powerful rulers of Ireland until the 11th century.

Niall's descendants were called the U

[Zaru]

@Rivergirl:

Thanks for the quotes. I am seeking to figure out where someone such as myself might fit in terms of haplotype. If one is not WAMH, which is attributable to the Isles, then can it be assumed that they are Continental? FTDNA is not the quickest to respond to inquiries, unfortunately.

@Frederator:

I agree that this type of profiling is speculative and subjective at best. It's all that we have at this point.

[Stevo]

. . .
On the other hand, I have heard of at least one case where a clerical goofup by the company resulted in a U106+ guy incorrectly being told he was L21+ for a number of years.

I don't know of any such cases, but I do know of a couple of guys who were given a U106+ result but who had 492=12 (almost all U106+ guys have 492=13) and lots of L21+ matches. When they were re-tested, it turned out the U106+ designation was an error; they were L21+.

I do know of one guy who was the victim of a clerical error for awhile. At first, his result was reported as R-P312*. It was later discovered he was really U106+, but he had the telltale 492=13.

[Stevo]

I have noticed that FTDNA has started putting tags on the home pages with the demarcation of WAMH or Niall of the Nine...

If one does not have either would this mean that British Isle/UK/Irish origins are doubtful?

My ancestral origins matches are all insignificant with the highest match percentage at 0.9% with Belgium. McEwan had me pinned on Frisian 2 several years ago prior to L21 testing. I really do not know specifically what Frisian 2 would be other than coastal Denmark down Belgium/Holland.

Can anyone clarify any of these points for me?

WAMH is common across all of P310, which includes P312 and its subclades and U106 and its subclades. It isn't limited to L21 and it isn't especially British.

The so-called Niall haplotype, however, is specific to the R-M222 subclade of L21. Most L21+ guys do not have it, and that includes most British and Irish L21s.

There is plenty of non-British L21. In fact the L21 variance on the Continent is greater than that in the British Isles, which means L21 is older on the Continent and probably originated there. Thus far, France has the oldest L21 haplotypes.

[T E Peterman]

I have a case where my uncle is L23* (surname Robinson). He had other close Robinson matches that were also L23*. Then one came along that was reported to be U106+ (all matched within a few markers at the 67 marker level). I said to myself, "No way".

I contacted Family Tree DNA & they assured me that my uncle is indeed L23*, but they decided to re-do the deep SNP on the U106+ match. Turned out that the U106 reading was wrong & that he, too, was only L23*.

So if a deep SNP result seems wrong, it doesn't hurt to point out the anomaly to Family Tree DNA. They will most likely want to clear up the matter.

Timothy Peterman

[rivergirl]

Being WAMH does not mean you are from British/Isles, it stands for Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

Not being WAMH does not mean you are not British.
None of my British lines are WAMH.
My relatives from Ireland are R1b L21 and not WAMH, (1 is M222, 1 is L144 and 1 is vanilla L21) and my English rellie 1 is R1b U106, (further testing revealed L48.)

[Zaru]

Being WAMH does not mean you are from British/Isles, it stands for Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

Not being WAMH does not mean you are not British.
None of my British lines are WAMH.
My relatives from Ireland are R1b L21 and not WAMH, (1 is M222, 1 is L144 and 1 is vanilla L21) and my English rellie 1 is R1b U106, (further testing revealed L48.)

I understood the acronym but misunderstood the geographic applications. The numbers seem to run high with British/Isles ancestry, but I am glad to know that it is a broad landscape, so thank you.

A deeper question asks that what is the point of WAMH if one can still be from western europe,R1b,and not have the WAMH? The acronym makes it seem very absolute.

[rivergirl]

It is the most common 12 marker haplotype found in Western Europe and a match means you mismatch on 1 marker, but not all R1b in Western Europe would fall into this match.

There is nothing saying that WAMH is mainly British or Isles. It might be found in higher frequencies in these areas, but that might be more about the bias in the database of men testing.

I think you are getting Western Atlantic mixed up with something.
Try thinking "Atlantic Modal haplotype". (Actually the 6 marker haplotype found originally was called this.)

From Wikipedia
WAMH exists in high or very high frequencies in all of Western Europe from Spain in the south to the British Isles and western Scandinavia in the north. Family Tree DNA estimate that approximately 2.62% of males in Western Europe share this most common genetic 12-marker signature.

The modal halpotype is
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

[Zaru]

It is the most common 12 marker haplotype found in Western Europe and a match means you mismatch on 1 marker, but not all R1b in Western Europe would fall into this match.

There is nothing saying that WAMH is mainly British or Isles. It might be found in higher frequencies in these areas, but that might be more about the bias in the database of men testing.

I think you are getting Western Atlantic mixed up with something.
Try thinking "Atlantic Modal haplotype". (Actually the 6 marker haplotype found originally was called this.)

From Wikipedia
WAMH exists in high or very high frequencies in all of Western Europe from Spain in the south to the British Isles and western Scandinavia in the north. Family Tree DNA estimate that approximately 2.62% of males in Western Europe share this most common genetic 12-marker signature.

The modal halpotype is
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

No, I am not confused at all. I am not WAMH, I was looking to weed out geographical possibilities, but it is not really possible to do so. Yes the research is slanted towards the high British Isles frequency. Thanks for the clarification.

[Beaucacio]

R-M222 is very definitely NIALL however Frisian your other strands may be. NIALL and his brothers went on to found the ruling clan in Ulster and the North for many centuries. They were known as the Ui Neil or, more commonly, the O'Neils and they displayed the Genghis Khan syndrome whenever they could.

Beaucacio
yDNA: R-M222 (confirmed)
mDNA: H (probably H8)

[Zaru]

R-M222 is very definitely NIALL however Frisian your other strands may be. NIALL and his brothers went on to found the ruling clan in Ulster and the North for many centuries. They were known as the Ui Neil or, more commonly, the O'Neils and they displayed the Genghis Khan syndrome whenever they could.

Beaucacio
yDNA: R-M222 (confirmed)
mDNA: H (probably H8)

If your statement applies to me, I am M222-, not positive.

[T E Peterman]

WAMH was a lot more meaningful back in the days BEFORE the discovery of SNPs that were nested beneath R1b.

Timothy Peterman