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  • Invader Ancestry?

    Hi, I am Scottish, L21+ but I am also 23 at 390, 10 at 391 and 11 at 460.

    Some people believe that these values point towards "Invader Ancestry", specifically Danish, Norse or Anglo-Saxon. I would be interested in what Members think.

    Thank you.

  • #2
    My surmission is that being L21+ trumps whatever shows up in the y-str data. I suspect that the majority of Scotsmen are L21+.

    Timothy Peterman

    Comment


    • #3
      I believe that Peterman's reply to you, if I understand it correctly, reflects the current consensus thinking.

      I believe that Peterman is saying that SNP status may be more relevant to remote origins than individual STR markers, and that, at this point at least, L21+ is regarded as indicating a "Celtic" origin.

      I would only add the cautions that such SNP correlations (e.g., L21+ = "Celtic") is a gross generalisation based on partial evidence, and should be taken with a grain of salt accordingly. There has never been a society on the face of the Earth that has been entirely genetically homogenous--that is just not biologically healthy or feasible. And given the tenuous link between current geographic distribution of L21+ and the poorly understood and shifting boundaries of tribal populations of pre-literate Europe, I don't think such identifications can be better than "tentative".

      That said, as currently understood, it sounds as if your Y DNA data suggests remote "Celtic" origin, which in your Scottish context most probably means Welsh, Pictish or Gaelic origins, though I do understand that there may have been some small, residual Celtic tribes which were gradually integrated into Norse populations prior to the Viking Age.

      Originally posted by DavidCoutts View Post
      Hi, I am Scottish, L21+ but I am also 23 at 390, 10 at 391 and 11 at 460.

      Some people believe that these values point towards "Invader Ancestry", specifically Danish, Norse or Anglo-Saxon. I would be interested in what Members think.

      Thank you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you for a very interesting and well written reply, Frederator.

        Comment


        • #5
          A long, long time ago, the various SNPs nested beneath R1b hadn't been discovered. R1b was a monolithic haplogroup. Those interested in R1b were really interested in figuring out how to break it into pieces. They tried to obtain this from y-str data & tentatively broke R1b into: Iberian Celt, Alpine Celt, Norse Celt, etc. I recall that some then thought that DYS 390=23 was indicative of Alpine Celt or Norse Celt.

          All of these speculations were rendered obsolete with the discovery of major SNPs like P312 & U106 & U152 & L21. The distribution is, of course, more complex than simply saying that all U106+ men are Saxon or all L21+ men are Irish.

          But when trying to ascertain origins, data based on the earlier model, such as DYS390=23 means Alpine or Norse origins, is irrelevant when compared to what the SNP says. The DYS counts can fluctuate at random, with DYS390 chaning to 24 or 25 or 22, etc. However, the L21 mutation is known to have only happened once & the odds of it ever happening again are astronomically small.

          My point is that when trying to ascertain descent within the rather large R1b family, use SNP data. We no longer need to rely on y-str data. Once upon a time, DYS390=23 was interpreted to suggest that someone was probably U152+ or U106+, rather than L21+. But an L21+ result today rules the roost & an L21+ result that is also DYS390=23 can be considered a statistical fluctuation within L21.

          Based on the prevalence of L21 in Scotland & Ireland today, I suggest that a Scotsman who is L21+ has deep Scottish roots & is probably NOT descended from one of the "invaders" who settled with the Anglo-Saxons or Norse, of whom only a small minority were likely to have been L21+.

          Timothy Peterman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
            A long, long time ago, the various SNPs nested beneath R1b hadn't been discovered. R1b was a monolithic haplogroup. Those interested in R1b were really interested in figuring out how to break it into pieces. They tried to obtain this from y-str data & tentatively broke R1b into: Iberian Celt, Alpine Celt, Norse Celt, etc. I recall that some then thought that DYS 390=23 was indicative of Alpine Celt or Norse Celt.

            All of these speculations were rendered obsolete with the discovery of major SNPs like P312 & U106 & U152 & L21. The distribution is, of course, more complex than simply saying that all U106+ men are Saxon or all L21+ men are Irish.

            But when trying to ascertain origins, data based on the earlier model, such as DYS390=23 means Alpine or Norse origins, is irrelevant when compared to what the SNP says. The DYS counts can fluctuate at random, with DYS390 chaning to 24 or 25 or 22, etc. However, the L21 mutation is known to have only happened once & the odds of it ever happening again are astronomically small.

            My point is that when trying to ascertain descent within the rather large R1b family, use SNP data. We no longer need to rely on y-str data. Once upon a time, DYS390=23 was interpreted to suggest that someone was probably U152+ or U106+, rather than L21+. But an L21+ result today rules the roost & an L21+ result that is also DYS390=23 can be considered a statistical fluctuation within L21.

            Based on the prevalence of L21 in Scotland & Ireland today, I suggest that a Scotsman who is L21+ has deep Scottish roots & is probably NOT descended from one of the "invaders" who settled with the Anglo-Saxons or Norse, of whom only a small minority were likely to have been L21+.

            Timothy Peterman
            Good points, well presented. However, I was under the impression that L21+ was widespread in Norway as well as Scotland. And of course, most of the Viking raids on Scotland were from Norway. So how does one determine if the L21+ came purely from Celtic sources or a mixture of Celtic and Norse?
            Last edited by ; 21 October 2010, 05:25 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I know that the Irish have a high concentration of L21+ & I know that the early Scots migrated from northern Ireland to Scotland.

              I know that Scandinavians are roughly 30% R1b, 30% R1a & 30% I1, with the remaining 10% or so being divided among Q1a38, N+, etc.

              I'm not sure what the breakout is of the 30% of Scandinavians that are R1b. Perhaps Stevo has updated numbers. I know there have been some L21+ reported among them.

              But again, my point is that the old notion that DYS390=23 suggests Norse or Alpine origins has been rendered obsolete by the discovery of actual SNP based haplogroups within R1b.

              The real question here is whether the Irish or Norse are the more likely source of L21+ in Scotland. I think the probabilities suggest an Irish origin, but we can't rule out a Norse origin.

              Stevo, what are your thoughts on this matter?

              Timothy Peterman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                I know that the Irish have a high concentration of L21+ & I know that the early Scots migrated from northern Ireland to Scotland.

                I know that Scandinavians are roughly 30% R1b, 30% R1a & 30% I1, with the remaining 10% or so being divided among Q1a38, N+, etc.

                I'm not sure what the breakout is of the 30% of Scandinavians that are R1b. Perhaps Stevo has updated numbers. I know there have been some L21+ reported among them.

                But again, my point is that the old notion that DYS390=23 suggests Norse or Alpine origins has been rendered obsolete by the discovery of actual SNP based haplogroups within R1b.

                The real question here is whether the Irish or Norse are the more likely source of L21+ in Scotland. I think the probabilities suggest an Irish origin, but we can't rule out a Norse origin.

                Stevo, what are your thoughts on this matter?

                Timothy Peterman
                I fully accept your view on this, Tim. But I believe my position is still valid; if one is Scottish and L21+, while a purely Celtic ancestry is more likely, one cannot rule out some Norse ancestry as well.
                Last edited by ; 21 October 2010, 06:21 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's all tied into the web.

                  Originally posted by DavidCoutts View Post
                  I fully accept your view on this, Tim. But I believe my position is still valid; if one is Scottish and L21+, while a purely Celtic ancestry is more likely, one cannot rule out some Norse ancestry as well.
                  Like Tim stated previously, one culture bled into the next. It seems that the natural question would be how can L21+ be broadly Celtic, when modern day Celts are actually a derivate of Norse/Scandanavian as well as possibly the East? I think that's the point that you are trying to clarify.

                  Many of us have hit a wall here and for the sake of the industry I hope they "discover" something soon!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You & I concur on this issue. Your L21+ results among the Scottish make an affinity to the Irish most probable, but it doesn't rule out a Norse (or French, or Spanish, or German, or any other nationality where L21 has been found) origin.

                    But to return to my point, unless there is new evidence that I'm unaware of, the reading DYS390=23 within L21+ doesn't make any of these origins more likely.

                    Timothy Peterman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                      You & I concur on this issue. Your L21+ results among the Scottish make an affinity to the Irish most probable, but it doesn't rule out a Norse (or French, or Spanish, or German, or any other nationality where L21 has been found) origin.

                      But to return to my point, unless there is new evidence that I'm unaware of, the reading DYS390=23 within L21+ doesn't make any of these origins more likely.

                      Timothy Peterman
                      Your point regarding DYS390=23 is well made, Tim, and I fully accept this. Perhaps in time, a new SNP will be discovered that will help to further define L21+. I, for one, certainly hope so.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Interesting topic.

                        Comment

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