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  • welcome to the NEW EXPERTS ON EB3 CLUB

    welcome to the NEW EXPERTS ON EB3 CLUB

    SInce their is only Mr. Garvey and he isnt here alot

    and we seem to be the learners here is a place for us decendents of paleoneolitic farmers [NOT]

    YOU CAN'T KNOW LESS THEN US so come and let's explore the unknown

  • #2
    i am trying to get dannan and dannanberg dannenmann to test i think they are my conection out of england

    Comment


    • #3
      E3b1- α is Neolithic

      Originally posted by Jim Denning
      .... here is a place for us decendents of paleoneolitic farmers [NOT]
      Hi Jim,

      Sorry,..but I don't quite understand why you are so sceptical of the neolithic farmer idea.....

      You are in the E3b1 α (alpha group), right ?

      Heres a quote from Dennis Garveys site:

      Cruciani et al. concluded that the distribution of the E3b1-alpha cluster in Europe indicates a Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansion out of the Balkans into Europe that spread as far west as the Iberian peninsula, and southeast to Turkey. STR diversity analysis gives an estimate of about 8 thousand years ago for that expansion. The cluster may have been part of a pre-Neolithic group indigenous to the Balkans, or it may have "leap-frogged" from Anatolia, to the Balkans, and then into Europe. The alpha cluster signature makes it possible to distinguish the E3b1 that expanded out of the Balkans from other E3b1's that came to Europe from the Near East (E3b1-delta cluster)
      Ok,...alpha cluster E3b aren't 100% conclusively descendants of Neolithic farmers per se..., but they are descendants of people who were already in Europe in the Neolithic period (thus not from anywhere in the middle east in the last 8,000 years)..........

      Of course,...we can't say exactly when your paternal line ancestor migrated from the Balkans to Ireland,...(ie. whether he was a neolithic farmer, a Kelt, a Roman soldier etc.),...

      Hey,...for all we know,... the original Indo-Europeans might have been E3b1 α

      Angela.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by AngelaCP
        Hi Jim,

        Sorry,..but I don't quite understand why you are so sceptical of the neolithic farmer idea.....

        You are in the E3b1 α (alpha group), right ?

        Heres a quote from Dennis Garveys site:



        Ok,...alpha cluster E3b aren't 100% conclusively descendants of Neolithic farmers per se..., but they are descendants of people who were already in Europe in the Neolithic period (thus not from anywhere in the middle east in the last 8,000 years)..........

        Of course,...we can't say exactly when your paternal line ancestor migrated from the Balkans to Ireland,...(ie. whether he was a neolithic farmer, a Kelt, a Roman soldier etc.),...

        Hey,...for all we know,... the original Indo-Europeans might have been E3b1 α

        Angela.
        look 30-60,000 yrs ago who knows what happened

        he is what i KNOW
        i have 48 matches 24 of these matches are askenazi with roots back to jewish israel . everyone says dont think that means anything but i do now some matches have suspected lines to planagents and hapsbergs. all that said and done i am a denning and i have 4000 dennings and i KNOW how that name changes first hand.
        So what if there is a newer connection to the jews.
        I have dennings in Germany married to Dannenmanns. Ever since the news came of jewish Matches the name Dannanberg came to mind. suppose the normans when they sent Shepardic Jews to Britiany to be admin people one was a Dannenberg. Now he stayed in Britian and was either converted or forced to convert.walking around 12th century britian as dannanberg was harder then dannan so he changed it.
        dannan can very easily be dannin dannen dinnan dinnin dinning denning
        i have thought since the start we left england post split in the church. then post jacobites we left with the forbes to ireland then again with the forbes to chelsea ma.
        it can fit

        which would you believe?

        thats one of a 1000 ways i got to longford ireland

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AngelaCP
          Hi Jim,
          Sorry,..but I don't quite understand why you are so sceptical of the neolithic farmer idea.....
          You are in the E3b1 α (alpha group), right ?
          Heres a quote from Dennis Garveys site:
          Ok,...alpha cluster E3b aren't 100% conclusively descendants of Neolithic farmers per se..., but they are descendants of people who were already in Europe in the Neolithic period (thus not from anywhere in the middle east in the last 8,000 years)..........
          Of course,...we can't say exactly when your paternal line ancestor migrated from the Balkans to Ireland,...(ie. whether he was a neolithic farmer, a Kelt, a Roman soldier etc.),...
          Hey,...for all we know,... the original Indo-Europeans might have been E3b1 α
          Angela.
          Angela, my thought is that the Paleolithic CroMagnon settlements throughout North Africa and Iberia may very well have been E3b, the Neolithic people that moved into Iberia as Middle East explorers were probably E3b...the Phoenicians etc......and the subsequent explorations that are expressed via the Megalith Culture throughout the Atlantic to the Baltic were probably E3b. That's at least in general where I am at now. Except maybe for the Basques the subsequent migrations were R1b's and I's .....Indo - Europeans. The quote that Garvey gives only presents part of the story. As an E3b (M35), I find my haplotype, although not modal and certainly rare, using YHRD.org in many formerly CroMagnon areas from Iberia to Sweden and to this day. The story of E3b hasn't played out by far yet.

          Best,

          Rick

          Comment


          • #6
            the first denning in usa

            page 525 the great migration begins

            WILLIAM DENNING

            ORIGIN:unknown
            MIGRATION: 1633
            FIRST RESIDENCE:Boston

            CHURCH MEMBERSHIP::"WILLYAM DENNYNservant to our brother WILLIAM BRENTON"
            was admitted to boston church 23 mar 1633/4[BChR 17]
            FREEDMAN:9 March 1636-7[as "will:dinny"][mbcr 1:373]
            EDUCATION: the invenory includes "one bible"valued at 6 s.
            ESTATE:On 12 DEC1636"William Deninge" was one of five servants of William Brenton ordered
            to have the great allotments at muddy river [btr 14]. (Pope claims that Denning was proprietor on
            14 Dec 1635;this date on which most Boston proprietor were awarded these allotments, but
            Denning and others were an after though the year later.) On 8 jan1637-38 the grants were laid out
            and "WILLIAM DENNING" recieved ten acres [btr 26]
            In the boston book of prossessions"William Denning"[sic]" held a house and lot bounded
            by Captian Keayne, North, Maudit English west,Benjamin Gilliam east and the lane southeast
            [bbop 37]
            On 5 Jan 1651/2"William Denning" and MauditEnglish complained about hinderence of access to there garden by the owners of the windmill, and where given relief by the town [btr 107]
            In his will OF 18 JAN1653/4(PROVED 31 jan1653/4)"William Denning" gave to his wife Ann Denning the use of his estate for life.:after her decease,If his son OBEDIAHcome over into New
            England then one- half the estate to be his otherwise 20s.; the remainder, together with the other
            half to my kinswomen Mary Powell, Provided she remain with my wife durring her life; friends
            and brethern Edward Flecter and John Hull overseers, they have power to sell about a half an
            acre below my garden., bounded with highway on one side,Muadet English on the west, and
            Deacon Marshall and Captain Robert Keayne on the north, to pay debts;witness Gamaliel Waite
            and Benjamin Negas [spr 1:95].The inventory was taken 18 january 1653/4[sic] by Edward
            Flectcher and John Hull; the estate totaled*)lbs.7s., of which 60lbs. was real estate:"one house
            & lot adjoining unto it& two house lots joining to them... consisting of about two acres...with
            sundry fruit trees" [spr 2:138].
            BIRTH:by or about 1616 based on date of freemanship(and probably somewhat earlier if he had an adult son by the timeof his death)
            DEATH:Boston Ma 20 FEB 1653-4 [BVR]

            Denning, Francis, and John, Mass. 1664. Felt. WILLIAM,
            Boston 1634, was in the employm. of William Brenton, and
            perhaps came with him the yr. preced. d. 20 Jan. 1654. By his
            will made two days bef. pro. 31 of same mo. his w. Ann and s.
            Obadiah ar nam. but the latter absent, and the f. gives him,
            “in case he doth not come personally into the country,” for
            half the testat.'s est. “twenty shillings and no more.”
            Database: The Great Migration Begins: Immigrants to New England, 1620-33
            Combined Matches: 1


            WILLIAM DENNING


            ORIGIN: Unknown
            MIGRATION: 1633
            FIRST RESIDENCE: Boston

            CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: "Willyam Dennyn servant to our brother Willyam Brenton" was admitted to Boston church 23 March 1633/4 [BChR 17].
            FREEMAN: 9 March 1636/7 (as "Will: Dinny") [MBCR 1:373].
            EDUCATION: The inventory includes "one bible" valued at 6s.
            ESTATE: On 12 December 1636 "William Deninge" was one of five servants of William Brenton ordered to have their Great Allotments at Muddy River [BTR 14]. (Pope claims that Denning was proprietor on 14 December 1635; this is the date on which most Boston proprietors were awarded these allotments, but Denning and others were an afterthought a year later.) On 8 January 1637/8 the grants were laid out, and "William Denning" received ten acres [BTR 26].
            In the Boston Book of Possessions "William Deming [sic]" held a house and lot bounded by Captain Keayne north, Maudit English west, Benjamin Gillam east, and the lane southeast [BBOP 37].
            On 5 January 1651/2 "William Deming" and Maudit English complained about hindrance of access to their garden by the owners of the windmill, and were given relief by the town [BTR 107].
            In his will, dated 18 January 1653/4 and proved 31 January 1653/4, "William Denning" gave to his wife Ann Dening the use of his estate for life; after her decease, if his son Obediah come over into New England then one-half the estate to be his, otherwise 20s.; the remainder, together with the other half, to my kinswoman Mary Powell, provided she remain with my wife during her life; friends and brethren Edward Fletcher and John Hull overseers, they to have power to sell about half an acre below my garden, bounded with the highway on one side, Maudit English on the west, and Deacon Marshall and Captain Robert Keayne on the north, to pay debts; witnesses Gamaliel Waite and Benjamin Negus [SPR 1:95]. The inventory was taken 18 January 1653/4 [sic] by Richard Gridley and Gamaliel Waite, and presented 31 January 1653/4 by Edward Fletcher and John Hull; the estate totalled £80 7s., of which £60 was real estate: "one house & lot adjoining unto it & two house lots joining to them ... consisting of about two acres ... with sundry fruit trees" [SPR 2:138].

            BIRTH: By about 1616 based on date of freemanship (and probably somewhat earlier if he did have an adult son by the time of his death).
            DEATH: Boston 20 February 1653/4 [BVR 43].
            MARRIAGE: By an uncertain date Ann _____; no record of her seen other than in her husband's will.
            CHILD:

            i OBEDIAH, not in New England at the date of his father's will, 18 January 1653/4; if he was already of full age by this time, as seems to be implied by the language of the will, he must have been born in England prior to the family's migration to New England. (Pope says Obadiah was in England, but the will only says he was not in New England.)

            ASSOCIATIONS: The Mary Powell named as kinswoman in the will of William Denning remains unidentified. She was not a daughter of Michael Powell of Dedham and Boston [NEHGR 131:173-74]. William Powell of Charlestown did have a daughter Mary in 1637, the right age to be a servant in the Denning household in 1653, and her fate is unknown [Wyman 768]. On 27 May 1657 Edward Wright married a Mary Powell in Boston [BVR 63]. She could be the same as Mary, daughter of William Powell of Charlestown, or she could be a separate individual. Either could be the woman named in William Denning's will, but proof is lacking.

            COMMENTS: For what seems to be a relatively simple surname, William appears under many different guises in the records. The instances of "Deming" are fairly straightforward, since the descriptions of land match those found in the will. The record of freemanship ("Dinny") is identified as this William because it falls in a group of mostly Boston men in the list, and there is no other William Dennis or Denny or anything similar; Pope says the freeman of 9 March 1636/7 was William Dennis of Scituate, but all records for him are in Plymouth Colony and not Massachusetts.
            On 4 September 1638 "George Horne is fined 10s. for distemper with drink, which his master, Willi: Denne, undertook to see satisfied" [MBCR 1:234]. Since the William Dennyn of this sketch was himself a servant only two years before this record, this may well refer to some other man. There is not, however, anyone else in Massachusetts Bay at the time with a similar name.

            does that give you the picture

            Comment


            • #7
              Higher chance of a Neolithic farmer than an Ashkenazi great (etc.) Grandfather

              Originally posted by Jim Denning
              i have 48 matches 24 of these matches are askenazi with roots back to jewish israel . everyone says dont think that means anything but i do now some matches have suspected lines to planagents and hapsbergs. all that said and done i am a denning and i have 4000 dennings and i KNOW how that name changes first hand.
              So what if there is a newer connection to the jews.
              Hi Jim,

              If Mike Hammer didn't have a big Ashkenazi database,....I'd almost be inclined to agree with you,......However...

              Mike Hammer does study Ashkenazi genetics, and I'd say that as a result the number of Ashkenazi in the FTDNA data base is disproportionately much larger than in the general European population.

              I'm mtDNA haplogroup K & half of my HVR1 matches from the FTDNA database are from Ashkenazi (& a large proportion of those Polish).....I have no reason to suspect that my maternal line ancestress was either Ashkenazi or Polish - Its just because there is a higher proportion of Ashkenazi in the database than in the general population (of course, if she was I wouldn't have a problem with that,...theres just no proof of it).

              Remember too that only 25% of Ashkenazi E3b is E3b1,..most of it is E3b3 (& none of the Jewish E3b1 in Cruciani et al. was alpha cluster - however no Ashkenazi was tested)

              Have you been SNP tested? If so which marker was tested?

              I'd say that the number of people in Europe that are E3b1 alpha cluster & descended from neolithic farmers is in reality far far far far far greater than the percentage of them that are descended from Ashkenazi.

              If there is a recent Jewish connection - great , I have absolutely no problem with that (unlike some people - you know who I mean), ...its just that based on the genetic evidence, the chance of that is actually much much lower than for a Neolithic farmer ancestor (despite what the high number of matches in the database implys).

              Also, remember that at 12 markers you can get matches between different subclades of a haplogroup. If you are E3b1 you might get a 12 marker match with someone in E3b3, - but you are more related to an E3b1 person that is a 11/12 or 10/12 match than you are to a 12/12 match in a different subclade. Confusing ? yes.

              If on the other hand, you get a Dannanberg tested & he turns out to be a very very close match...... (& if you ever can get a Jewish Dannanberg tested, make sure you both have subclade tests done too).

              Angela.

              Comment


              • #8
                YCC Haplogroup E3b1 (alpha cluster)
                Haplotype #15 is the most common E3b haplotype seen in Europe. This seems to be the modal haplotype for the E-M78-alpha cluster referred to by Cruciani et al. Top 30 Population DYS19 DYS389i DYS389ii DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS385a DYS385b
                #15 66 13 13 30 24 10 11 13 16 18

                my 1-12 contains this so anyone who is 12/12 with me will have this

                bennett told me next year [2005] a new test for eb3 will be available i'll wait for that

                garvey has me as alpha so again my matches must be alpha

                i have talked to my matches and the jewish ones tell me they have roots in israel . I have problems with 30,000+ years because outside of ireland it seems people moved alot the berbers melicians and the others that conquered spain. the keltoi ,the people who have escaped tons of persecutions and genocides, the palatanes the anglo saxons then normans .when i started this i thought people didnt move much i know better now i see a zillion opportunities for jews to britian. the line of Troy to britian as told by virgil. joseph of aramathea and lazarus of the house of bethany to glastonbury, the list is endless.

                but isnt this why we do these projects. with 60,000 the picture if fuzzy . when there is 9,000,000 the puzzle clears. but you have to except whats there. maybe my jewish matchs can document their roots.

                If on the other hand, you get a Dannanberg tested & he turns out to be a very very close match...... (& if you ever can get a Jewish Dannanberg tested, make sure you both have subclade tests done too).
                i have talked to one and made my pitch hopefully i didnt scare her .i havent heard from her thats good and bad eventully i will get one and more


                If there is a recent Jewish connection - great , I have absolutely no problem with that (unlike some people - you know who I mean),
                i know exactly what you mean

                i just dont want people to always except that an answer is not possible

                and i want eb3's to realize we need to learn for ourselves because the so called experts are doing r1h and the like


                angela we can always use someone who knows something to reign us in

                Comment


                • #9
                  one of my 12/12 matches sent me this
                  In line with your info. I find that southern France (Marseille area)
                  was ihabited by many Jews. In late 700s to 800s it became Kingdom of
                  Septimania. From there descendants ( a mixture of Jewish, Merovignian
                  Franks and Visigoths) became Dukes of Aquataine- (Planta-Velu) Bernard
                  seems to be last shown. But another branch became Dukes of Brittany-
                  crossed with Normans and a branch became Plantaganets who then became
                  Kings of England. Later mixed with Scots- House of Stuart are
                  descendants. They in turn mixed with Wurtemburgers & Guise family of
                  Lorraine. Does this agree with your findings??? Giles

                  i think it does

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uid s=830891

                    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

                    The differences among Jewish communities--maternal and paternal contributions.

                    Ritte U, Neufeld E, Broit M, Shavit D, Motro U.

                    Department of Genetics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel.

                    The haplotypes of Y chromosome (paternally inherited) and mtDNA (maternally inherited) were analyzed in representatives of six Jewish communities (Ashkenazic, North African, Near Eastern, Yemenite, Minor Asian/Balkanian, and Ethiopian). For both elements, the Ethiopian community has a mixture of typically African and typically Caucasian haplotypes and is significantly different from all others. The other communities, whose haplotypes are mostly Caucasian, are more closely related; significant differences that were found among some of them possibly indicate the effects of admixture with neighboring communities of non-Jews. The different contribution of the Y chromosome and mtDNA haplotypes to the significant differences among the communities can be explained by unequal involvement of males and females in the different admixtures. In all communities, except the Ethiopians, the level of diversity (h) for Y chromosome haplotypes is higher than that for mtDNA haplotypes, suggesting that in each community the people who become parents include more males than females. An opposite proportion (more females than males) is found among the Ethiopians.

                    PMID: 8308911 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/12/6769?ijkey=4983ff1d21c68b5f5021e90b12f

                      Published online before print May 9, 2000, 10.1073/pnas.100115997
                      PNAS | June 6, 2000 | vol. 97 | no. 12 | 6769-6774


                      This Article

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                      PubMed

                      PubMed Citation
                      Articles by Hammer, M. F.
                      Articles by Bonné-Tamir, B.

                      Medical Sciences
                      Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
                      M. F. Hammer*,,, A. J. Redd*,, E. T. Wood*,, M. R. Bonner*, H. Jarjanazi*, T. Karafet*, S. Santachiara-Benerecetti¶, A. Oppenheim, M. A. Jobling**, T. Jenkins, H. Ostrer, and B. Bonné-Tamir§
                      * Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721; ¶ Department of Genetics, Università degli Studi di Pavia, Pavia 27100, Italy; Hadassah Medical School, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 91120, Israel; ** Department of Genetics, University of Leicester, Leicester LE1 7RH, England; SAMIR, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg 2000, South Africa; Department of Pediatrics, New York University Medical Center, New York, NY 10016; and § Department of Human Genetics, Sackler School of Medicine, Ramat Aviv 69978, Israel

                      Communicated by Arno G. Motulsky, University of Washington, Seattle, WA, March 15, 2000 (received for review November 17, 1999)

                      Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.


                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      M.F.H., A.J.R., and E.T.W. contributed equally to this work.

                      To whom reprint requests should be addressed at: Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, Biosciences West Room 239, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721. E-mail: [email protected].

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                      • #13
                        http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Dienekes' Anthropology Blog: Haplogroup E3b and Ancient Jews
                          [December 7, 2004]. Haplogroup E3b and Ancient Jews. ... They possess 2.9% of haplogroup
                          E3b, which however may have been introduced by other populations of Africa. ...
                          dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/ 12/haplogroup-e3b-and-ancient-jews.html - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

                          http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/12...ient-jews.html

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            again welcome e3bs welcome to the club

                            i am e3b1 174 alpha cluster but so what

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