Determining Native American Ancestry

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

His father could MT-DNA test for his direct mother line as long as he has an unbroken chain of women going to direct mother line that you suspect is Indian. But if the Indian came from his mother's father this would not show up on his direct mother line.

Ok, so my cousin is confident that the NA ancestry is from his father's mother's side, however he is not sure how far back the direct female line goes back. I guess I'm confused by how far back a "direct female line" is and when you can and can't test for mtDNA.

Here are the two scenarios:

(1) Non direct female line via Peggy Ball - I guess this can't be tested with either Y or mtDNA?:
Margaret "Peggy" Ball
Elizabeth "Betsy" Godwin
Netheldred Thomas (a male so mt-DNA would not work here)
Elizabeth Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.) md Lewis
Edith Lewis (his paternal grandmother)
His Father
My male cousin

(2) or via Elizabeth Thomas (direct female line):

Margaret (Marguerite) Carmichael
Rebecca Isabelle Tidd
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.)
Edith Pearl Lewis


Thanks for your patience and for clarifying
Ginger

[Yaffa]

I've been waiting for the results for my grandmother on D9S919 for a while now, just in case. If it turns out it's something other than 9, then back to square one, minus $20. If it turns out equal to 9, then this might confirm the story of her mother being 1/2 NA, taken with a grain of salt of course, as discussed earlier in thread.

""IF"" you come up with 9 then you would need to locate paper as to which ancestor in may have come from since this marker is autosomal and will not tell you what specific ancestor it came form where Y and MT DNA will give you a specific ancestor

[Yaffa]

Ok, so my cousin is confident that the NA ancestry is from his father's mother's side, however he is not sure how far back the direct female line goes back. I guess I'm confused by how far back a "direct female line" is and when you can and can't test for mtDNA.

Here are the two scenarios:

(1) Non direct female line via Peggy Ball - I guess this can't be tested with either Y or mtDNA?:
Margaret "Peggy" Ball
Elizabeth "Betsy" Godwin
Netheldred Thomas (a male so mt-DNA would not work here)
Elizabeth Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.) md Lewis
Edith Lewis (his paternal grandmother)
His Father
My male cousin

(2) or via Elizabeth Thomas (direct female line):

Margaret (Marguerite) Carmichael
Rebecca Isabelle Tidd
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.)
Edith Pearl Lewis


Thanks for your patience and for clarifying
Ginger

It looks like your friends father's direct mother line goes to Elizabeth Thomas, Rebecca Tidd and last known would be Margaret Carmichael. This is the line your friends father's MT DNA would go to.

If you were trying to get Peggy Ball's MT DNA there can be no males to break her line down to the living. Neltheldred Thomas in your friends line being male breaks the line to Peggy Balls MT DNA

Is Netheldread actually Etheldred???

[Yaffa]

PS were any of your lines in Wilkes NC? I know the Ball and Lewis families from that area. im related to both. and I think we had Mills in the area too???

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

It looks like your friends father's direct mother line goes to Elizabeth Thomas, Rebecca Tidd and last known would be Margaret Carmichael. This is the line your friends father's MT DNA would go to.

If you were trying to get Peggy Ball's MT DNA there can be no males to break her line down to the living. Neltheldred Thomas in your friends line being male breaks the line to Peggy Balls MT DNA

Is Netheldread actually Etheldred???

Ok, that is what I was thinking as far as following the direct female line goes. I looked for Peggy Ball on some of the NAI rolls here in NC where she would have been from, but didn't find her, so *I* don't believe she was NAI, but everyone else seems to think she was.

So is there any way at all to test Peggy Ball for NAI ancestry? Would we need to test the mtDNA of Peggy's daughter, Elizabeth Godwin, then Elizabeth Godwin's daughter, and then her daughter, and so on down to a direct female descendant?

Elizabeth Godwin's son's name was Netheldred. His grandfather and husband of Peggy Ball was Etheldred Godwin, sometimes also referred to as Netheldred Godwin.

[Yaffa]

If you were trying to get Peggy Ball's MT-DNA it has to go down through all female lines to either a living female or male. If it were a living male to test for Peggy's MT DNA he must descend from a straight line of females to peggy.

There were many tribes in NC not just the Cherokee. the Cherokee are the only tribe that is federal and would have rolls. I have no idea if Peggy was Indian but if her MT-DNA came up Indian, it wont tell you what tribe she was of unless you can find paper stating tribe. If she came up Indian she may not have been Cherokee but of another tribe that the government will tell you does not exist. If that is the case I doubt you will find record of tribe

And I have never seen the name Netheldread. I have seen a few Etheldread and they called them dread for short

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

PS were any of your lines in Wilkes NC? I know the Ball and Lewis families from that area. im related to both. and I think we had Mills in the area too???

We don't know anything about the Ball family at all. I don't even know where they came from. Peggy Ball died before the 1850 census came along that stated where they were from. All I have is a marriage bond between her and her husband, Etheldred Godwin.

Dred Godwin was from Sampson County and then moved to Randolph Co about 1799. They then moved to Clay/Putnam Co., Indiana about 1828 and stayed in Putnam until Dred died in 1852.

I am related to the John Lewis family of Randolph Co., NC. I believe he died about 1830. His daughter Nancy married my ancestor Elijah Godwin, the moved to Indiana in 1828, then settled in Lawrence Co., AR by 1840.

[Yaffa]

That is a little too early for me. I cant get back that far on most in my tree. In the 1750's the whole western part of NC was Rowan county and got split up into different Counties. Randolph county was near Almance/Orange Chatham. These were not areas of the Cherokee but at some point early on were areas of the Saponi who really have no records and to the federal government these people are extinct.

[gijoeinfinity]

""IF"" you come up with 9 then you would need to locate paper as to which ancestor in may have come from since this marker is autosomal and will not tell you what specific ancestor it came form where Y and MT DNA will give you a specific ancestor

I'm well aware of that.

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

If you were trying to get Peggy Ball's MT-DNA it has to go down through all female lines to either a living female or male. If it were a living male to test for Peggy's MT DNA he must descend from a straight line of females to peggy.

There were many tribes in NC not just the Cherokee. the Cherokee are the only tribe that is federal and would have rolls. I have no idea if Peggy was Indian but if her MT-DNA came up Indian, it wont tell you what tribe she was of unless you can find paper stating tribe. If she came up Indian she may not have been Cherokee but of another tribe that the government will tell you does not exist. If that is the case I doubt you will find record of tribe

And I have never seen the name Netheldread. I have seen a few Etheldread and they called them dread for short

Margaret "Peggy" Ball
Elizabeth "Betsy" Godwin
Netheldred Thomas (a male so mt-DNA would not work here)
Elizabeth Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.)
Edith Lewis

Ok, so the only male I could test for mtDNA from Peggy Ball's line would be Netheldred Thomas. Of course, he is no longer living, so that is out of the question and mtDNA testing for Peggy's line via a male descendant is a dead end.

Or, I could test the mtDNA of Elizabeth Godwin's daughter's direct female line:
Elizabeth Godwin md. Wm Thomas
Catharine Ellen Thomas md. Willard Stockton
Fredonia Irene Stockton md. Commadore Perry Hultz
Grace Eleanor Hultz md. Cecil Donald Pelley
Donald Pelley md June

I have been in contact with Grace and Cecil's son, Donald. However I don't believe Donald has any sisters, so we would have to test his mother, Grace, if she is still living.

Yes, the only tribe I had access to was the Cherokee.

He was definitely called Netheldred Thomas as is on his tombstone. I'm not sure if he had a nickname or not. His grandfather was called "Dred" for short.

[Yaffa]

I'm well aware of that.

OK but some people arent aware of how it works and might be reading this tread.

[Yaffa]

Margaret "Peggy" Ball
Elizabeth "Betsy" Godwin
Netheldred Thomas (a male so mt-DNA would not work here)
Elizabeth Thomas
Ida May Mills (G.Grandma Lewis - died at 102 yrs.)
Edith Lewis

Ok, so the only male I could test for mtDNA from Peggy Ball's line would be Netheldred Thomas. Of course, he is no longer living, so that is out of the question and mtDNA testing for Peggy's line via a male descendant is a dead end.

Or, I could test the mtDNA of Elizabeth Godwin's daughter's direct female line:
Elizabeth Godwin md. Wm Thomas
Catharine Ellen Thomas md. Willard Stockton
Fredonia Irene Stockton md. Commadore Perry Hultz
Grace Eleanor Hultz md. Cecil Donald Pelley
Donald Pelley md June

I have been in contact with Grace and Cecil's son, Donald. However I don't believe Donald has any sisters, so we would have to test his mother, Grace, if she is still living.

Yes, the only tribe I had access to was the Cherokee.

He was definitely called Netheldred Thomas as is on his tombstone. I'm not sure if he had a nickname or not. His grandfather was called "Dred" for short.

If Netheldrad had a sister who had daughters you would need to find her line to try and find the living to test for Peggy

Your cousin's father could test MT DNA for the mother line of Godwin

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

If Netheldrad had a sister who had daughters you would need to find her line to try and find the living to test for Peggy

Your cousin's father could test MT DNA for the mother line of Godwin

I thought Natheldred Thomas broke the direct maternal line for my cousin's father to do the mtDNA on the Godwin line?

[Yaffa]

looking at you line yes he does break the line to Godwin and to Peggy Ball. Sorry It looks like your cousin's MTDNA would go to Elizabeth Thomas ( daughter of Netheldread) mother line

[GingerRSmith]

Determining Native American Ancestry

looking at you line yes he does break the line to Godwin and to Peggy Ball. Sorry It looks like your cousin's MTDNA would go to Elizabeth Thomas ( daughter of Netheldread) mother line

I am still fairly new to mtDNA testing. How do you know which of the female lines the NAI ancestry came from? How do you know how far back on the direct female line the DNA is going back. How are mtDNA results assigned? For example, which surname are they assigned to if the surname changes every generation that goes back?