E3b Ramblings....Comments welcome.

[CNT]

I doubt that any of the archived Genealogy-DNA-L will answer the question, I have subscribed to that list for quite sometime. I have posed the same question to that list, and got some interesting responses. The closest to an answer I have found is here: ""Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans:" Lessons in Phylogeography."" Micheal E. Weale et.al. 2003 Genetics Society of America.
Back to the Calabria project table, in the column marked h a p l o someone, (hopefully not FTDNA) has inserted YAP. YAP is not a Haplogroup nor is it a haplotype, if one would read the above mentioned article they can get a professional definition of YAP.
And the question still remains, where is the origin of the D and E Haplogroups?
If one uses current populations and concentrations of haplotypes therein, to establish the origin; where is the trail of D between Africa and Japan? Or where is the trail of E between eastern Asis and Africa?
I really didn't expect an answer here I was merely hoping someone had stumbled across some new research that I haven't found yet.

Thanks for your replies
Jeffrey Stewart

Hi Jeffrey,
The results tables on the FTDNA hosted project websites are solely
generated by FTDNA, - so its FTDNA that has labelled it YAP. YAP is the defining mutation for DE, so although “YAP” isn’t a haplogroup per se,.. it is
the same as saying DE.As for the origin of D and E, it was my understanding that in the paper you quote, they found DE (YAP positive, but negative for the defining mutations for both D & E) in Africa.

Regards,
CNT

[jaken24]

CNT,

That is correct, they found YAP+ with no derived markers in five Nigerian males. Which should be sufficient evidence to place the origin of YAP in Africa. What they went on to devulge is that they aren't sure that YAP is in fact the 'father' of D and E.
Looking at the phylogeographic trees, one can see in all but one scenario, YAP is a parallel path to D and E. I would love to see the research on this matter concluded, unfortunately, those of us with YAP+ represent only about 2-5% of the individuals tested, and money drives the research. Which is why so much research, and subsequently such a clear path of origin, belongs to the R Haplogroup and it's associated haplotypes.

Jeffrey Stewart

[Jim Denning]

CNT,

That is correct, they found YAP+ with no derived markers in five Nigerian males. Which should be sufficient evidence to place the origin of YAP in Africa. What they went on to devulge is that they aren't sure that YAP is in fact the 'father' of D and E.
Looking at the phylogeographic trees, one can see in all but one scenario, YAP is a parallel path to D and E. I would love to see the research on this matter concluded, unfortunately, those of us with YAP+ represent only about 2-5% of the individuals tested, and money drives the research. Which is why so much research, and subsequently such a clear path of origin, belongs to the R Haplogroup and it's associated haplotypes.

Jeffrey Stewart

the sooner we get over the racial - geographical separation the better we will be
5 nigerians seems so few i look at the old e3b stuff maps ect and they never mention ireland but today more and more are comming. yet the same old maps are still there. people made assumptions on e3b not being in ireland and other places. personaly jeff until we test millions i dont think we know much

this world is a big place and people went alot of places 1000s or years ago

[Apo-Init]

Tacoma writes; Rick replies:

There is absolutely no evidence of so-called “Caucasoid” populations living in prehistoric East Africa. As I stated earlier, terms such as Caucasoid are scientifically invalid. The term derives from a point in time that predates modern techniques in biological anthropology such as genetics.

>> If you are stating that there is no such concept as race I would not be ready to accept such. There are considerable differences among races in my opinion. However, this is not the place for such a discussion.

In addition the term is a misnomer, as there is no evidence of populations migrating from Eurasia into East Africa prior to the Holocene.

>> Not as yet, but agree.

There is no linguistic, genetic, archaeological or osteological evidence indicating humans migrating from Eurasia or the Caucus Mountain range region into Africa during the Late Glacial Maximum.

>> Not as ye, but agree.

There is no evidence linking modern Berber speakers (Berber is a language, not a phenotype) with Paleolithic NW Africans.

>>"Physical anthropologists agree that Cro-Magnon is represented in modern times bythe Berber and Tuareg peoples of North Africa". Perhaps this statement is true?


Then again, I am not an expert in any scientific field.

Best,

Rick

LMAO By these replies of "not yet," I take it Rossi that you are still keeping hope alive that someday evidence will be discovered of a "caucasoid" presence in East Africa?!!

Keep dreaming!!

Now for some real evidence:

The African Archaeological Review, 6 (1988), pp. 57 72


Who were the later Pleistocene eastern Africans?

L . A . SCHEPARTZ

Abstract

A later Pleistocene Khoisan peopling of eastern Africa has been suggested by most researchers. The evidence cited consists of a few isolated crania, archaeological occurrences described as 'Wilton', rock paintings and scattered populations of present-day huntergatherers
speaking languages with clicks and viewed as bearing some physical resemblances to living Khoisan groups. When these different lines of evidence are evaluated, it is clear that
there is no strong basis for retaining the concept of later Pleistocene Khoisan populations in eastern Africa. Instead, the available data suggest that the later Pleistocene and Holocene eastern Africans were tall, linear peoples.

CB writes: This is in response to Thought saying Pleistocene East Africans looked more like West Africans. They didn't, instead they more like the modern Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan speakers there.

Linguistic evidence suggests that, prehistorically, eastern Africa was a place where speakers of at least two other language
phyla might have congregated. Ehret's (1974a) reconstruction of proto-Nilotic places Nilo-
Saharan-speakers in eastern Africa by at least 4-6000 BP. In keeping with this, Sutton (1974,
1977) has suggested that Nilotic language-speakers living in northern Kenya today provide a
good analogy for the archaeological remains of semi-permanent lakeshore habitations in the
same area dating from between 10,000 and 4000 BP (Owen et al. 1982). Afroasiatic is another
language phylum that may have been present early in eastern Africa. Ehret (1974b) suggests
Afroasiatie (Southern Cu****ic) speakers began moving into eastern Africa at least 5000
years ago and that they may have been responsible for early stone cairn burials in northern Kenya (Stiles and Munro-Hay 1981). Given these linguistic arguments for early populations of Nilo-Saharan and Afroasiatic language-speakers in eastern Africa and their ties with current eastern African populations, it seems more reasonable to regard those groups as the earliest known populations in the region, and to reserve judgement on the role of click
language-speakers.

If some of the eastern African rock paintings date to the terminal Pleistocene or early
Holocene, the tall 'Kolo' peoples may represent groups like the lakeshore fishing folk thought
to have been in eastern Africa at least as early as 10,000 BP (Barthelme 1977, 1981; Owen et
al. 1982). Human remains from the lakeshore sites of Lothagam, the Lake Turkana Galana
Boi beds and Ishango are tall and linear, exactly the features depicted in the 'Kolo' style
paintings. This link between the 'Kolo' style paintings and skeletons from the lakeshore sites
is supported by other evidence. Archaeologists have proposed that ancestral populations of
either Nilo-Saharan (Sutton 1974, 1977) or Affoasiatic language-speakers could have been responsible for these lakeshore sites; and modern speakers of both linguistic phyla are among the tallest and most slender people of eastern Africa (Hiernaux 1968, 1975).

The role of tall, linearly built populations in eastern Africa's prehistory has always been
debated. Traditionally, they are viewed as late migrants into the area. But as there is better
palaeoanthropological and linguistic documentation for the earlier presence of these populations than for any other group in eastern Africa, it is far more likely that they are indigenous eastern Africans. I have argued elsewhere (Schepartz 1985) that these prehistoric linear populations show resemblances to both Upper Pleistocene eastern African fossils and present-day, non-Bantu-speaking groups in eastern Africa, with minor differences stemming from changes in overall robusticity of the dentition and skeleton. This suggests a longstanding tradition of linear populations in eastern Africa, contributing to the indigenous
development of cultural and biological diversity from the Pleistocene up to the present.

And of course:

Jean Hiernaux

The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series)

pgs 42-43, 62-63

The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar associationis presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region.

Many authors regard these people as physically akin to the Mediterraneans, hence the label of 'Caucasoids' (or European-like) generally attached to them. However, all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in anumber of body proportions.............


From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. Now, as mentioned in Chapter 3, the fossil record tells of tall people with long and narrow heads, faces and noses who lived a few thousand years BC in East Africa at such places as Gamble's Cave in the Kenya Rift Valley and at Olduvai in northern Tanzania. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to Caucasoids of Europe and western Asia, as they usually are in literature.

But you can keep dreaming the impossible if you want.

[Rossi]

Wrong and rude.

"LMAO By these replies of "not yet," I take it Rossi that you are still keeping hope alive that someday evidence will be discovered of a "caucasoid" presence in East Africa?!!

Keep dreaming!!"

You are wrong and rude.

[jmeras]

Received National Genographic results E3b (M35)

Hi,

I just received my results and found out that my haplogroup (based on Y-chromosone DNA) is E3b (M35). I found this very interesting since my fathers side is from Mexico, and like most from this region, my father's side is mixed between indoamerican and european ancestry. It is my understanding that it is a mix between french, spanish, and mayan indian. It is important to remember that the Spaniards brought slaves into Mexico, so there are Mexicans with african bloodlines.

JM

[Victor]

Hi,

I just received my results and found out that my haplogroup (based on Y-chromosone DNA) is E3b (M35). I found this very interesting since my fathers side is from Mexico, and like most from this region, my father's side is mixed between indoamerican and european ancestry. It is my understanding that it is a mix between french, spanish, and mayan indian. It is important to remember that the Spaniards brought slaves into Mexico, so there are Mexicans with african bloodlines.

JM

Hello JM,

If you're surprised by your Y-DNA results, let me tell you, you're not the first and won't be the last either.

Remember Forrest Gump the movie? Well, paraphrasing a little, DNA testing is a little like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gonna get!

Go check our project page and compare your results.
http://www.familytreedna.com/(5rzj144514tbhm55ew2z35uo)/public/freemanDNAProject/

You're Welcome to join us. It's free.

Victor

[RealDealT]

E3b1b (E3b2) M81 allele frequencies

To all those with an interest in haplogroup E3b1b (aka E3b2) M81+, I have posted a chart of allele frequencies based on 53 SNP tested haplotypes. You can view the chart at this link: http://tinyurl.com/2p7fh6

I should say that while there were 53 haplotypes, they were not all full 37 marker haplotypes. I wish there were more data. The good part is they were SNP tested as M81+. Finally, I wanted to point out that the modal mostly agrees with an earlier study I did of an Iberian sub-cluster of E3b. The two modals differ only on DYS449 and CDYa,b and probably because of the small sample sizes in both datasets. If you want to view that earlier Iberian sub-cluster study it can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/34mfj9

Thanks for your interest. Comments welcome.