Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

E3b Ramblings....Comments welcome.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Conceptualizing human variation....

    'Race' and subspecies
    Although the subspecies level is formally recognized in taxonomy, it has been criticized. Subspecies were primarily delimited by differences in selected observable morphological traits within a restricted geographical range. In practice, divisions were made based on a few prominent traits, with subsequent variation interpreted in terms of established units.

    In the 1950s many zoological taxonomists became dissatisfied with the subspecies as a way to understand variation10, 12, 13. Criticisms included (i) the nonconcordance of traits, which made it possible to produce different classifications using the same individuals; (ii) the existence of polytopic populations, which are the product of parallel evolution; (iii) the existence of true breeding populations (demes) within previously delimited subspecies; and (iv) the arbitrariness of criteria used to recognized subspecies10. In addition, some traits were found to be clinally distributed, making the creation of divisions arbitrary.

    Current systematic theory emphasizes that taxonomy at all levels should reflect evolutionary relationships11. For instance, the term 'Negro' was once a racial designation for numerous groups in tropical Africa and Pacific Oceania (Melanesians). These groups share a broadly similar external phenotype; this classification illustrates 'race' as type, defined by anatomical complexes. Although the actual relationship between African 'Negroes' and Oceanic 'Negroes' was sometimes questioned, these groups were placed in the same taxon. Molecular and genetic studies later showed that the Oceanic 'Negroes' were more closely related to mainland Asians.

    Molecular systematics makes it possible to explore infraspecific variation to detect patterns that would reflect phylogenetic substructuring. Avise and Ball suggest a definition of 'subspecies' that is consistent with the goals of evolutionary taxonomy11: "Subspecies are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding populations phylogenetically distinguishable from, but reproductively compatible with, other such groups. Importantly the evidence for phylogenetic distinction must normally come from the concordant distributions of multiple, independent, genetically based traits."

    This definition is different from the previous one in that it emphasizes phylogenetics. It is, in theory, more objective and consistent with neodarwinian evolutionary theory and can be used as the basis for determining whether or not modern Homo sapiens can be structured into populations divergent enough to be called 'races'. We know that there is human geographical variation, but does this infraspecific diversity reach a threshold that merits the designation 'subspecies', as is true with chimpanzees14?

    'Race' and social construction
    'Race' is 'socially constructed' when the word is incorrectly used as the covering term for social or demographic groups. Broadly designated groups, such as 'Hispanic' or 'European American' do not meet the classical or phylogenetic criteria for subspecies or the criterion for a breeding population. Furthermore, some of the 'racial' taxa of earlier European science used by law and politics were converted into social identities2. For example, the self-defined identities of enslaved Africans were replaced with the singular 'Negro' or 'black', and Europeans became 'Caucasian', thus creating identities based on physical traits rather than on history and cultural tradition. Another example of social construction is seen in the laws of various countries that assigned 'race' (actually social group or position) based on the proportion of particular ancestries held by an individual. The entities resulting from these political machinations have nothing to do with the substructuring of the species by evolutionary mechanisms.

    Comment


    • Conceptualizing human variation....

      Human races as human variation
      Arguments against the existence of human races (the taxa 'Mongoloid', 'Caucasoid' and 'Negroid' and those from other classifications) include those stated for subspecies10 and several others15. The within- to between-group variation is very high for genetic polymorphisms (85%; refs. 16,17). This means that individuals from one 'race' may be overall more similar to individuals in one of the other 'races' than to other individuals in the same 'race'. This observation is perhaps insufficient18, although it still is convincing because it illustrates the lack of a boundary. Coalescence times19, 20 calculated from various genes suggest that the differentiation of modern humans began in Africa in populations whose morphological traits are unknown; it cannot be assumed from an evolutionary perspective that the traits used to define 'races' emerged simultaneously with this divergence15. There was no demonstrable 'racial' divergence.

      Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA genealogies are especially interesting because they demonstrate the lack of concordance of lineages with morphology15 and facilitate a phylogenetic analysis. Individuals with the same morphology do not necessarily cluster with each other by lineage, and a given lineage does not include only individuals with the same trait complex (or 'racial type'). Y-chromosome DNA from Africa alone suffices to make this point. Africa contains populations whose members have a range of external phenotypes. This variation has usually been described in terms of 'race' (Caucasoids, Pygmoids, Congoids, Khoisanoids). But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse21. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them.

      Human genome variation, demographic groups and disease
      'Race' is a legitimate taxonomic concept that works for chimpanzees but does not apply to humans (at this time). The nonexistence of 'races' or subspecies in modern humans does not preclude substantial genetic variation that may be localized to regions or populations. More than 10 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) probably exist in the human genome22. More than 5 million of these SNPs are expected to be common (minor allele frequency >10%)23. Most of these SNPs vary in frequency across human populations, and a large fraction of them are private or common in only a single population. Other genetic variants are also asymmetrically distributed. This makes forensic distinctions possible even within restricted regions such as Scandinavia24. Anonymous human DNA samples will structure into groups that correspond to the divisions of the sampled populations or regions when large numbers of genetic markers are used. This has been demonstrated with autosomal microsatellites, which are the most rapidly evolving genetic variants25. The DNA of an unknown individual from one of the sampled populations would probably be correctly linked to a population. Because this identification is possible does not mean that there is a level of differentiation equal to 'races'. The genetics of Homo sapiens shows gradients of differentiation15, 26.

      Because substantial genetic variation may be localized to regions or populations, attention has been focused on how geographic origins may contribute to differential distribution of disease and mortality or 'health disparities'. In January of 2000, the US Department of Health and Human Services launched "Healthy People 2010," a program committed to eliminating 'ethnic' and 'racial' health disparities. Although there is considerable debate regarding the definition, measurement and causes of health disparities, there is increased focus on the potential role of the distribution of DNA sequence variation in contributing to observed differences in disease status among groups.

      Several competing, but not necessarily exclusive, hypotheses exist to describe the genetic contribution to complex disease, including the common disease–common variant (CDCV) hypothesis and the multiple rare variants (MRV) hypothesis27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. If it turns out to be that much of the genetic variation contributing to disease is old and shared by most human populations, as implied by the CDCV hypothesis, then differences in the health status of population groups (health disparities) will be largely due to differences in exposure to cumulative environmental insults. If the MRV hypothesis turns out to be true, however, then more comprehensive sampling of multiple human populations will be necessary to adequately describe the extent to which a differential distribution of genes underlies the pathophysiology of disease susceptibility or resistance. Under this hypothesis, a substantial proportion of genetic polymorphisms will be rare and will probably be specific to groups that experienced similar evolutionary forces of selection or drift. In the end, both the CDCV and the MRV hypotheses may apply, depending on the phenotype under consideration. The etiologies of diseases such as lupus, diabetes and Alzheimer disease are examples that may require strategies derived from both hypotheses.

      An important implication of the MRV model is that no one map of polymorphic markers (e.g., a SNP map such as that generated by the HapMap project) will probably be sufficient for understanding the complex interplay between multiple genetic variants and multiple environmental factors in the etiology of human diseases across all global populations. Therefore, it may be premature at this time to completely disregard all population (or group) identifiers in biomedical research, as some propose. Group identifiers are important for seeing group patterns in disparities. For example, African Americans have a higher prevalence of some chronic and degenerative diseases. African American males have a 60% greater risk of developing prostate cancer, twice the risk of developing its aggressive form and twice the mortality relative to European Americans33. Study designs should reflect efforts to partition the genetic, environmental and geographic variance for the diseases that contribute most to group disparity statistics, such as obesity and related disorders.

      The finding that the demographic group called 'African American' has a higher prevalence of prostate cancer, obesity and hypertension is not to be denied. This does not mean, however, that this is a 'racial' phenomenon, as disease is probably due to gene-environment interaction and not linked to the physical traits assumed to covary with this population. This group has heterogeneous ancestral continental origins, predominantly West African and West Central African. They are heterogeneous in their African origins also. Continental African immigrants to the US, including some suprasaharan Africans (e.g., Tunisians and Egyptians) sometimes call themselves 'African Americans', which is true as an epithet but false as a marker of the bioethnic history of those whose ancestors share the experiences of the Middle Passage and slavery. It is this history, and its constituent elements, that are specific to the group. The Middle Passage African descendants, whether in North America or South America, do have a particular biocultural history34. It may be necessary to craft specific group identifiers to facilitate good research design2. 'Racial' approaches to identity, as found in Office of Management and Budget directive 15, operate from the Platonic mold that groups so defined would necessarily be genetically the same, and this is false. The New World descendants of Middle Passage Africans, whether found in specifically labeled communities (e.g., African Argentinian, African Mexican, African Venezuelan or African Canadian) or in the 'majority' populations ('mestizos' or 'whites') cannot be lumped with newcomers from the continent under the label 'black' or 'African American'. Designations like 'Arab' are also fraught with biohistorical complexity because they often designate peoples who became acculturated. For example, Syrian and Shuwa Arabs illustrate the great biological and cultural variation that may be found under a single ethnolinguistic label.

      The causes of health disparities among groups are not well understood, but genetic explanations are frequently the default position for a variety of reasons, including a tradition of biological determinism4. Although genes probably have a role, we must realize that some environmental influences can be so subtle and occur so early in life as to be missed, thereby facilitating acceptance of a genetic explanation that is probably false. The fetal programming and early childhood insult hypotheses for the origins of adult disease may have a role in explaining health disparities35, 36.

      Comment


      • Conceptualizing human variation....

        'Race' and research
        Modern human genetic variation does not structure into phylogenetic subspecies (geographical 'races'), nor do the taxa from the most common racial classifications of classical anthropology qualify as 'races' (Box 1). The social or ethnoancestral groups of the US and Latin America are not 'races', and it has not been demonstrated that any human breeding population is sufficiently divergent to be taxonomically recognized by the standards of modern molecular systematics. These observations are not to be taken as statements against doing research on demographic groups or populations. They only support a brief for linguistic precision and careful descriptions of groups under study. Terms and labels have qualitative implications.

        Detailed description of study populations and their specific histories is advocated. The study of well-defined local populations of demographic groups of the same name should be carried out in order to understand possible gene-environment effects. Likewise, data from nationwide studies on particular demographic groups should always be disaggregated by locale. Local names should replace macrodesignations in studies in order to reflect specific populations. Generalizations that invoke 'genetic' explanations are to be avoided unless they are warranted. All of these have policy implications for health studies.

        'Racial' thinking can still be found in scientific literature15. Evolutionary and other biohistorical studies should be model-based and should acknowledge the ongoing legacy of 'racial' thinking. Collaborations with experts in appropriate fields such as historical linguistics, archaeology, ethnology and recent history would improve the quality of multidisciplinary studies.

        Received 9 September 2004; Accepted 23 September 2004; Published online 26 October 2004.

        Top



        REFERENCES
        Andreasen, R.O. Race: Biological reality or social construct. Philos. Sci. (Proc.) 67, S653–S666 (2000). | Article |
        Keita, S.O.Y. & Boyce, A.J. "Race": Confusion about zoological and social taxonomies, and their places in science. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 13, 569–575 (2001). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Andreason, R.O. A new perspective on the race debate. Brit. J. Philos. Sci. 49, 199–225 (1998).
        Lewontin, R. Not In Our Genes (Pantheon, New York, 1984).
        Livingstone, F. On the non-existence of human races. Curr. Anthropol. 3, 279–281 (1962). | Article | ISI |
        Gordon, H. Genetics and race. S. Afr. Med. J. 39, 533–536 (1965). | PubMed | ChemPort |
        Stepan, N. The Idea of Race in Science: Great Britain 1800–1960 (London and Basingstoke, 1982).
        Deniker, J. The Races of Man (Walter Scott, London, 1900).
        Garn, S. Human Races. (McGraw Hill, Springfield, 1961).
        Mayr, E. & Ashlock, P. Principles of Systematic Zoology 2nd edn. (McGraw Hill, New York, 1991).
        Avise, J.C. & Ball, R.M. Principles of genealogical concordance in species concepts and biological taxonomy. Oxf. Surv. Evol. Biol. 7, 45–67 (1990).
        Wilson, E.O. & Brown, W.L. The subspecies concept and its taxonomic application. Syst. Zool. 2, 97–111 (1953). | ISI |
        Brown, W.L. & Wilson, E.O. The case against the Trinomen. Syst. Zool. 3, 174–176 (1953).
        Ruvolo, M. Genetic diversity in hominoid primates. Annu. Rev. Anthropol. 26, 515–540 (1997). | Article | ISI |
        Keita, S.O.Y. & Kittles, R.A. The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence. Am. Anthropol. 99, 534–544 (1997). | ISI |
        Latter, B.D. Genetic differences within and between populations of the major human groups. Am. Nat. 116, 220 (1980) | Article | ISI |
        Lewontin, R.C. The apportionment of human diversity. Evol. Biol. 6, 381–398 (1972).
        Long, J.C. & Kittles, R.A. Human genetic diversity and the non-existence of biological races. Hum. Biol. 75, 449–471 (2003). | PubMed | ISI |
        Nei, M. & Roychoudhury, A.K. Evolutionary relationships of human populations on a global scale. Mol. Biol. Evol. 10, 927–943 (1993). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. & Piazza, A. The History and Geography of Human Genes. (Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 1994).
        Underhill, P.A. et al. The phylogeography of Y chromosome binary haplotypes and the origins of modern human populations. Ann. Hum. Genet. 65, 43–62 (2001). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Kruglyak, L. & Nickerson, D. Variation is the spice of life. Nat. Genet. 27, 234–236 (2001). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Carlson, C.S. et al. Additional SNPs and linkage-disequilibrium analyses are necessary for whole-genome association studies in humans. Nat. Genet. 33, 518–521 (2003). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Allen, M., Salden, T., Patterson, U. & Gyllensten, U. Genetic typing of HLA class II genes in Swedish populations: applications in forensic analyses. J. Forensic Sci. 38, 554–570 (1993). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Rosenberg, N. et al. Genetic structure of human populations. Science 298, 2381–2385 (2002). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Serre, D. & Paabo, S. Evidence of gradients of human genetic diversity within and among continents. Genome Res. 14, 1679–1685 (2004). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Collins, F.S., Brooks, L.D. & Chakravarti, A. A DNA polymorphism discovery resource for research on human genetic variation. Genome Res. 8, 1229–1231 (1998). | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Reich, D. et al. Linkage disequilibrium in the human genome. Nature 411, 199–204 (2001). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Weiss, K.M. & Clark, A.G. Linkage disequilibrium and the mapping of complex human traits. Trends Genet. 18, 19–24 (2002). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Pritchard, J.K. & Cox, N.J. The allelic architecture of human disease genes: common disease-common variant...or not? Hum. Mol. Genet. 11, 2417–2423 (2002). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Carlson, C.S. et al. Selecting a maximally informative set of single-nucleotide polymorphisms for association analyses using linkage disequilibrium. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74, 106–120 (2004). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Neale, B. & Shan, P. The future of association studies: gene-based analysis and replication. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75, 353–362 (2004). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Stanford, J.L. et al. Prostate Cancer Trends 1973-1995. SEER Program, National Cancer Institute NIH Pub No 99-4543. (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, 1999).
        Rout, L., The African Experience in Spanish America, 1502 to the Present Day (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1976).
        Barker, D.J.P. In utero programming of chronic disease. Clin. Sci. 95, 115–128 (1998). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
        Sallout, B. & Walker, M. The fetal origin of adult diseases. J. Obstet. Gynaecol. 23, 555–560 (2003).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tacoma
          Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
          Published online: 26 October 2004; | doi:10.1038/ng1455
          Conceptualizing human variation
          S O Y Keita1, 2, R A Kittles1, 3, C D M Royal1, G E Bonney1, P Furbert-Harris1, G M Dunston1 & C N Rotimi1
          1 National Human Genome Center, College of Medicine, Howard University, Washington, DC 20060, USA.
          Ahh,..yes,..good paper
          However, a link to the paper would have been better than posting the entire text over several posts.

          Comment


          • Confused

            Tacoma, I am a little confused. If the present context is to view East Africans as ancestral to Europeans, how can Mesolithic East Africans not be considered "proto-causcasoid"? Unless, you consider the term caucasoid totally bogus, which I think you do?

            Also, if East Africans are to be considered ancestral to Europeans and Cro-magnons were "Proto-Europeans", then there is an implied logical (and perhaps empirical) relationship between East Africans and Cro-magnons, yes?

            And, if the M35 lineages did not exit out of Africa until after the LGM, I would like your thoughts on how some were selected for light skin, if light skin did not exist in sub-sahara Africa?

            I think I said that somewhat clear...if not, please reformulate my questions in your mind appropriately before answering please. In other words, "do you get my drift?".

            Thanks much,

            Rick

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tacoma
              {The same.

              Besides, where did you gather that Dienekes is a 'medi-centrist' ?}

              Tacoma Writes:

              Given his position within the debate between the white Aryanist ideologue community over the inclusion or exclusion of Mediterranean people under the "white" racial umbrella, I view him as a "Medi-Centrist". He arbitrarily labels Mesolithic Sub-Saharan East Africans and modern East Africans “Caucasoid” simply because they tend to have a more narrow face and nasal aperture than other Africans that live further into the central African forest belt. He attributes strange racial taxonomies (“Negroid” etc) to genetic variance. East Africans, modern and ancient have evolved a unique phenotype based upon the fact that they have lived in a hot-dry climate over thousands or years, not because they are any more or nay less related to Europeans. There is a more direct relationship between east Africans and Europeans, than between West Africans and Europeans, but the proper context is to view East Africans as ancestral to Europeans, not vice versa. Hence, Mesolithic East Africans were not “proto-Caucasoid”, in fact the M35 lineages post date the expansion of homosapiens out of Africa. Cro-magnons were “Proto-Europeans”, the M35 lineages did not expand out of Africa until AFTER the LGM. Both E3b (East African) and E3a (West African) lineages are sister clades within the PN2 transition and are closer to one another than to any Eurasian specific lineage. The “Proto-Caucasoid” theory may be a ruse designed to explain away the fact that the basis of what we call Western Civilization evolved from the proto-agricultural (Mesolithic) techniques and populations of Africa and spread to Europe with the diffusion of genes (E3b), languages (Afro-Asiatic) and technology (the Neolithic) during the Holocene (recent epoch). “Proto-Caucasoid” populations had lived in Europe for over 25,000 years before Sub-Saharan African genes (E3b) and technologies were introduced to Europe during the Neolithic period.

              So, to translate what you just said:

              "blah blah blah, Dienekes is a medi-centrist, blah blah blah because he doesn't agree with me that blah blah blah Africans made all known civilizations in the world blah"

              That's basically what you said, and according to your statements,
              the Europeans did originate in Africa, but didn't.

              So, please tell me, since the European populations did stem from East African populations, then, how did you come to the conclusion that the two are not related?

              Thanks for spamming the board with long long texts, and for attempting to make your position seem unbiased, but, basically, you're just a biased person,
              with an agenda.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by E3b Alpha
                So, to translate what you just said:

                "blah blah blah, Dienekes is a medi-centrist, blah blah blah because he doesn't agree with me that blah blah blah Africans made all known civilizations in the world blah"

                That's basically what you said, and according to your statements,
                the Europeans did originate in Africa, but didn't.

                So, please tell me, since the European populations did stem from East African populations, then, how did you come to the conclusion that the two are not related?

                Thanks for spamming the board with long long texts, and for attempting to make your position seem unbiased, but, basically, you're just a biased person,
                with an agenda.
                Awar, just so you know...we kind of tone things down here. We try not to obviously inject personal feelings and agenda's in this forum. We have had a good discussion regarding E3b and Tacoma has been very productive and presented information that we all have found valuable. If he has an agenda he has kept it to himself and dealt with arguments in a very professional way.

                I know you too have much to offer.

                Rick
                Last edited by Rossi; 27 January 2005, 09:32 AM.

                Comment


                • You're right. I apologize.

                  But, I still don't understand what does my membership on SKADI have to do with anything, and I also don't understand what's with the self-defeating statements by Tacoma.

                  I came here to discuss the possible origins and migration routes of E3b, and the appearance of its subclades. Not to listen to page after page of propaganda.

                  Comment


                  • Y-chromosome haplogroup discussion (E3b and all the others)

                    All,
                    I am not a scientist nor have I been educated in the field of DNA/genetics. However, a quick look at the phylogenetic tree posted on the FTDNA site will show that all present day, non-africans, descended from M168/P9. Due to repopulation some present day africans also descend from the same person. This is a "FACT" regardless of skin "color" or "race" which seems to be the main theme of this thread lately. If we all can agree on the M168/P9 statement then maybe the "race" discussion can move to peolpe e-mailing each other and spare the rest of us the spat back and forth. That is unless someone can tell me the skin color of the group that left africa some 80,000 years ago whose descendants populated the entire globe or for that matter the skin color of the ones who stayed.
                    Don Potter

                    Comment


                    • Don't get me wrong, I agree with the out-of-africa theory,
                      but I disagree with the following:

                      1. that all population movements were out-of-africa.
                      There surely were several back and forth migrations.

                      2. that all Africans belong to the "same race".
                      Race is not about skin-color. There is a lot of interesting differences
                      between the phenotypes ( and genotypes ) of various earth's populations.
                      There are such distinctions between various African populations.

                      One simply cannot not-see the differences between
                      Northern Africans like the Berbers, Southern Africans like the Bushmen,
                      Western Africans, and Eastern Africans. The same goes for Eurasian populations, the Indian subcontinent etc. etc.

                      Eastern Africa has seen more migrations than one ( out of the Olduvai ),
                      if the predominant Y-lineage there today is E3b, it does not necessarily mean
                      it originated there ( just because it's Africa ).

                      Same goes with E3b alpha, which appears in Northern Egypt. It's most likely a remnant from the times of Alexander and the Roman empire. Balkanoid.

                      It doesn't collide with the out-of-africa theory if you say that some of today's African Y-lineages are not originally African.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by E3b Alpha
                        You're right. I apologize.

                        But, I still don't understand what does my membership on SKADI have to do with anything, and I also don't understand what's with the self-defeating statements by Tacoma.

                        I came here to discuss the possible origins and migration routes of E3b, and the appearance of its subclades. Not to listen to page after page of propaganda.

                        Awar, I don't think your (or my) membership on SKADI has anything to do with anything. I have learned a great deal from that forum. Everyone may seemingly contradict themselves from time to time and it is the job of the rest of us, and I know you know this, to help clarify what another has said and then argue our point. Unfortunately, E3b is fraught with all sorts of "racial baggage". It is a touchy subject for all us E3b's. But, I think we all have a genuine desire to learn more about our genetic heritage and I will go out on a limb and say there is much, much more to be discovered about the role E3b has played in Europe and its genetic heritage.

                        Rick

                        Comment


                        • Racial baggage... well, not for me.
                          I'm neither a racist, nor a real racialist.

                          I think it's just tiresome to listen to all sorts of *-centrists
                          who try to simplify everything, and then beat the subject in, twist it,
                          to fit it into their agenda.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Don Potter
                            All,
                            .......If we all can agree on the M168/P9 statement then maybe the "race" discussion can move to peolpe e-mailing each other and spare the rest of us the spat back and forth. That is unless someone can tell me the skin color of the group that left africa some 80,000 years ago whose descendants populated the entire globe or for that matter the skin color of the ones who stayed.
                            Don Potter
                            Don,

                            I for one would miss the discussion on race that has resulted here. I have learned much. And the more I learn, the less and less scientific importance skin color has for me. Let me tell you.....I have been very prejudiced all my life.....but these last discussions here have helped me reorganize my thinking to some extent into a viable, healthier understanding of the concept of race. I do have my preferences.......but my thoughts on what makes up humanity have become more.......well "human".

                            Rick

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=E3b Alpha]Racial baggage... well, not for me.
                              I'm neither a racist, nor a real racialist.

                              QUOTE]


                              You are lucky.

                              What's a real racialist?

                              Rick

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rossi
                                Originally posted by E3b Alpha
                                Racial baggage... well, not for me.
                                I'm neither a racist, nor a real racialist.

                                You are lucky.

                                What's a real racialist?

                                Rick
                                I'm not obsessed with race at any level.
                                I see the existence of races, but not as some clear-cut borderlines exist between them.

                                One cannot say that races don't exist. Humans developed in different ways,
                                due to living in different areas of the world. It's a flowing process.

                                I'm interested in finding out more, not creating a fantasy world, in which "this or that people" created everything that is good.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X