E3b Ramblings....Comments welcome.

[Rossi]

Very strange haplotype for E3b......

19,389-1,389-2,390,391,392,393,385a&b

14,13,24,11,11,13,18,18

More markers available under Rossi....

Turns out to be M35+. East Africa to Northeast Africa then both ways to Middle East and Northwest Africa? Mostly Berbers have it now, and Somalia and Ethiopia. What gives...all the males in my family for generations are at around 6ft. I am over 6ft. Green eyes. Reddish/Brown hair (Green eyes are mostly associated with red hair). All naturally dense boned and muscular...verified by doctors and dentists. Racial classification for me is Brunn...Cromagnon, UP. Could I have turned white after all these years? Or were we white...like the Guanches...many E3b's in that population even now after they were mostly exterminated. Was the Megalith culture E3b...running from Egypt to Sweden? YHRD.org's 24 hits places this haplotype clearly in the Cromagnon areas...Spain, France, Croatia, Sweden. Maybe many E3b's were exploring that whole coast area right after the LGM? Let's see....North Africa....to Spain...to Ireland...then the Baltic? Megaliths all over these coasts. Nordics all buried there. The Berbers are linked with Egypt...and Basques...who are linked to the Celts...who are linked to the Irish.....many who are Brunn...Cromagnon. I am clearly European. I can easily move my haplotype prediction to I1b with only manipulating the 385 a and b markers a little bit. But then 18,18 is found in many Africans and African Americans. What is going on? But mine is not a Berber haplotype either. Not really. More of a Basque haplotype...but not that either....not R1b like they are either. But some found in their populations...even in the South American Colombian Basque population. I am thinking that the E3b Neolithic single migration theory is too simple. Found a study that says they think so too. All so confusing... I need to think some more.

[bob_allison]

Your height, eye colour, hair colour etc. result from the admixture of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of ancestors.

Your Y haplotype is inherited from just ONE of those ancestors.

I think you may be reading a little too much into your inherited haplotype.

Bob

[Jim Denning]

Very strange haplotype for E3b......

19,389-1,389-2,390,391,392,393,385a&b

14,13,24,11,11,13,18,18

More markers available under Rossi....

Turns out to be M35+. East Africa to Northeast Africa then both ways to Middle East and Northwest Africa? Mostly Berbers have it now, and Somalia and Ethiopia. What gives...all the males in my family for generations are at around 6ft. I am over 6ft. Green eyes. Reddish/Brown hair (Green eyes are mostly associated with red hair). All naturally dense boned and muscular...verified by doctors and dentists. Racial classification for me is Brunn...Cromagnon, UP. Could I have turned white after all these years? Or were we white...like the Guanches...many E3b's in that population even now after they were mostly exterminated. Was the Megalith culture E3b...running from Egypt to Sweden? YHRD.org's 24 hits places this haplotype clearly in the Cromagnon areas...Spain, France, Croatia, Sweden. Maybe many E3b's were exploring that whole coast area right after the LGM? Let's see....North Africa....to Spain...to Ireland...then the Baltic? Megaliths all over these coasts. Nordics all buried there. The Berbers are linked with Egypt...and Basques...who are linked to the Celts...who are linked to the Irish.....many who are Brunn...Cromagnon. I am clearly European. I can easily move my haplotype prediction to I1b with only manipulating the 385 a and b markers a little bit. But then 18,18 is found in many Africans and African Americans. What is going on? But mine is not a Berber haplotype either. Not really. More of a Basque haplotype...but not that either....not R1b like they are either. But some found in their populations...even in the South American Colombian Basque population. I am thinking that the E3b Neolithic single migration theory is too simple. Found a study that says they think so too. All so confusing... I need to think some more.

email me at [email protected]

[Jim Denning]

Very strange haplotype for E3b......

19,389-1,389-2,390,391,392,393,385a&b

14,13,24,11,11,13,18,18
I am thinking that the E3b Neolithic single migration theory is too simple. Found a study that says they think so too. All so confusing... I need to think some more.

i find the neolitic things hard to buy too
but try jews berbers also became jews as did somalians and ethiopians who are classified caucasian anyways

[Rossi]

Your height, eye colour, hair colour etc. result from the admixture of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of ancestors.

Your Y haplotype is inherited from just ONE of those ancestors.

I think you may be reading a little too much into your inherited haplotype.

Bob

Yes Bob, I know. I think though it is not that many ancestors since Homo Sapiens became Sapiens. I can't help but think too that there is more to it than an admixture that dissolves any observable relationship between now and then. Perhaps we can tell something as a result of the path a haplotype or SNP has taken. It is fun to speculate....perhaps to stumble upon a truth. I realize it is almost ridiculous for one to say that since they belong to haplogroup I their ancestor was a Viking...or if an R1b therfore a Celt....really anyone could be either...a member of haplogroup J perhaps.... Who knows? And really we do not know the interplay of genes...perhaps the Y is a master switch? We know it means male. But I do believe there is a pattern from father to son and mother to daughter as well as the other way around. How is it that one can classify race characteristics? Such as Phalian or Baltic. And many times be right and see the similarity. Also wrong often but there must be a similarity in populations, a continuity if you will.

Best to you on this holiday.

[Rossi]

i find the neolitic things hard to buy too
but try jews berbers also became jews as did somalians and ethiopians who are classified caucasian anyways

Jim, there is a relationship....somewhere...haplotype J, I1b and E3b are related in some way. I can take the 24 haplotypes hits my minimal haplotype produced on YHRD.org, put them in that predictor at hapest.htm and because only the 385 a and b vary (all other markers are the same) get haplogroup J on some and I1b on others as well as E3b. And to further complicate matters haplogroup R shares a mutation with E way back. And then also my haplotype is far from modal for Berber. But none of this is an exact science to be sure. And maybe the predictor is inaccurate...or maybe the classification structure is wrong...there is much to learn on the genetics side. But I like to triangulate using different methods of analysis...languages, cultural similarities, archaeology to help get a general idea of what is or has happened. I am now more interested in how E3b played out its Western European experience because, after all, it is my heritage and I suspect yours as well as an E3b. We know of its presence in Africa both North and East, and the Middle East somewhat well. I think there is much more to be said on E3b and Western Europe. I have alot of other information that I will be posting here regarding the E3b, the Cromagnon, Brunn, the Berbers, Egyptions, Spanish, Celts, "Iberians",Irish, Welsh, Scots and so forth. A little at a time. Each can make up his or her mind.... For example, a little tidbit I found....


Gaelic has much in common with the Proto-European Basque language, and is therefore not strictly Indo-European as it is often described. This helps further promote the fact that the Irish are fundamentally descendant from the Stone-Age Europeans who arrived in Ireland 10,000 years ago. The Indo-Europeans only arrived in Ireland in 300BC or so. For example, no Indo-European language undergoes a grammatical change at the front of a noun. At the end yes - car to cars, and in the middle also - man to men. But it is only Gaelic and Britannic languages that change at the front also - cara to chairde.

Slan Libh go leir.

Infoplease: Celtic languages, Pronunciation and Grammar [7].

"An interesting feature of Celtic languages is that in several characteristics they resemble some non-Indo-European languages. These characteristics include the absence of a present participle and the use instead of a verbal noun (found also in Egyptian and Berber), the frequent expression of agency by means of an impersonal passive construction instead of by a verbal subject in the nominative case as in Egyptian, Berber, Basque, and some Caucasian and Eskimo languages), and the positioning of the verb at the beginning of a sentence (typical of Egyptian and Berber)."

[Rossi]

This is kind of interesting:

http://www.nordish.net/~earlson/megalith.htm

Jim, I am trying to email you but having problems. I will keep trying.

Best,

Rick

[jaken24]

Rossi,

To what do you attribute a Y haplotype in the E3b group? Either you have transposed your loci < 19, 389I, 389II, etc.> or your values don't match any E3b modals; not even close....maybe R1b.
I suspect that some transposition occured as values of 13,24 at 389I, 389II; is extremely rare if not impossible.
If you truly believe that you are E3b you should check this site:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/hg/YCC_E3b.html

Regards,
Jeffrey Stewart

[Rossi]

Mistake

I did make a mistake...thanks much for the review. Here is the correct value:

Dys 389II is 30.

Best,

Rick

[Rossi]

Snp +

I would assume it is impossible to test positive for more than one SNP mutation? Yes?

[Don Potter]

SNP test

Rossi,
You would test positive for every maker upstream of your haplogroup assignment (ie a P25 + person would also test positive for M173). Also markers downstream of the current SNP tseted ones are being found and one down will be offered to us as well.
Don Potter

[Rossi]

I did make a mistake...thanks much for the review. Here is the correct value:

Dys 389II is 30.

Best,

Rick

Actually I left a value out, should be:


19,389-1,389-2,390,391,392,393,385a&b

14,13,30,24,11,11,13,18,18

I still think it is a strange haplotype for E3b. But I tested positive for M35+.

Rick

[jaken24]

Re: Odd E3b

Rick,

Indeed that is an odd haplotype for E3b, I thought I was an oddball with my 385a/b=15/17....no match for your 18/18!
I am actually only 1? or 2? away from the modal, and that is at the 385a/b loci. That is far enough away that Dennis Garvey didn't include me in his list of folks he 'thinks' may be E3b1 alpha or E3b1 beta; and you were included in his alpha list. What does it all mean? THEY need to do alot more SNP testing and include new tests. I am still waiting for my SNP test.
When THEY, actually get down to testing deeper than M35+; you may find yourself the founding father of a new subclade! ;o)

Jeffrey Stewart

[Jim Denning]

bennett told me next year e3bs will have a good test just twiddle your fingers till then guys

[Rossi]

Rick,

Indeed that is an odd haplotype for E3b, I thought I was an oddball with my 385a/b=15/17....no match for your 18/18!
I am actually only 1? or 2? away from the modal, and that is at the 385a/b loci. That is far enough away that Dennis Garvey didn't include me in his list of folks he 'thinks' may be E3b1 alpha or E3b1 beta; and you were included in his alpha list. What does it all mean? THEY need to do alot more SNP testing and include new tests. I am still waiting for my SNP test.
When THEY, actually get down to testing deeper than M35+; you may find yourself the founding father of a new subclade! ;o)

Jeffrey Stewart

Jeffrey,

I didn't see my name on the E3b1 alpha list. I do not think he included me on any.

Thanks,

Rick