How Celtic or Germanic are the English?

[rainbow]

Spain, especially Southern Spain along the Mediterranean, had a huge influx of people from other areas of the Mediterranean and of Moors and Arabs. Northern Spain and Portugal would have more in common, genetically, with the British Isles.

[rainbow]

Maddi, You missed my point in post #88.

[BlackWolf]

As Stevo has posted, there's ample evidence that R1b1b2 originated in what's now Turkey or nearby. Then it entered Europe through which it moved north and west. I don't think there are many blue-eyed, blond-haired men in Turkey or Greece or southern Italy where the oldest subclades of R1b1b2 are found.

So I don't see why you think that there's some sort of correlation between R1b and light eye/hair color. The correlation is between geographic location and light eye/hair color - the farther north you go, the more people have light eye/hair color. So, R1b1b2 men in southern Europe generally have dark eye/hair color and R1b1b2 men in northern Europe have higher levels of light eye/hair color.

There is very little evidence. Even in looking at SNPs. That is because Y-DNA mutates frequently and that during the last ice age there would have been several Genghis Khan founder effects. German R1b looks nothing like British Isles R1b, neither does Gaul, though that is closer. If German R1b or Norway R1b "looked" like British Isles R1b, ok....but it doesnt, and oldest does not cut it when we are talking migrations from Iberia. Especially since the population would have been at a near extinction event causing multiple mutations for survival. Rainbow, although the Aleut are lighter they are far from white skin.

We may find that R1b in the British Isles has actually been there all along since the LGM

That is why you have many founder effects due to a very small population. Who knows

[Stevo]

I think I hear Rod Serling's voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

[Stevo]

I think I hear Rod Serling's voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

I should explain that I meant that to a certain extent we are in the "Twilight Zone" when it comes to figuring all this out (i.e., stepping into the unknown, etc.).

[rainbow]

Bronze Age Iberians

I just read a blog posted by Jean M on July 11th, on another forum (DNA Forum).

Posted by Jean M Yesterday I attended a stimulating one-day forum at St Anne's College Oxford: Rethinking the The Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe.

The most unexpected and exciting paper was the mischievously-titled "Dead sea connections", which of course had nothing to do with the Dead Sea. Wessex Archaeology staff reported on a fascinating site discovered in recent years on the Isle of Thanet on the south-eastern tip of England. It was probably an early landing site for arrivals in the Copper or Early Bronze Age (2400-2000 BC), who buried their elite in round barrows (burial mounds) on the highest point of the coast line overlooking what is now Pegwell Bay. At the time the Isle of Thanet really was an island. The sea channel between Thanet and the Kent mainland silted up in modern times.

As often found elsewhere, later burials cluster close to one of these barrows. This later cemetery was used from the Late Bronze Age (9th-11th centuries BC) through to the Middle Iron Age (4th century BC).

The team used isotopic analysis to find out where these people came from. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia, probably southern Sweden or Norway, five were from South-West Iberia and the origins of the remaining two could not be identified. Interestingly the earliest phase (Late Bronze) was the most mixed: local, Norse and Iberian. In the Early Iron Age the mixture was local and Iberian. The Middle Iron Age mixed local and Norse. Does this pattern reflect trade routes? Or was this a clan ritual site, to which people returned periodically? Ancient DNA might be able to distinguish between those two possibilities, but the cost of testing (12,000 [British Pounds] per bone or tooth) was prohibitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Thanet

[rainbow]

Bronze Age Iberians in England

Iberians in England.

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/kent/ramsgate/cliffs_end/exhibition.html

Here is the wikipedia link to an old map of Kent, England, showing the island of Thanet (now just an isle) where Bronze Age Iberian skeletons were found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OldMapKent.jpg

[BlackWolf]

I just read a blog posted by Jean M on July 11th, on another forum (DNA Forum).





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Thanet

Veddy Interesting Rainbow. Actually that combined local, Norse and Southwest Iberian totally sounds like my autosomal results today, lol, sans the Mestizo.

[rainbow]

Here is a link to the blog. I just happened to see it today. I don't usually read blogs but the title caught my eye and it was relevant to what this thread is about.

http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/blog/2/entry-68-norse-and-iberian-bronze-age-seamen-on-the-isle-of-thanet/

And the grave goods included items from France and West/Central Europe and the Po Valley in Italy.


Edit (again): Here is the link to the flickr account, with photos of the Bronze Age finds. http://www.flickr.com/photos/wessexa...ags/cliffsend/

[Stevo]

I don't think anyone ever said NO Iberians ever made it to the British Isles. I think the idea that doesn't float is the notion that the Isles were settled en masse immediately following the LGM by immigrants from the Iberian Peninsula. Obviously the British Isles, especially the western parts, were part of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading network and had contact with Iberia. But that does not mean the Isles were settled en masse by Iberians. If they ever were, there is little trace of those early settlers today.

I also think you two should really start a new thread in which you could run with your anachronistic Iberians-populated-the-British-Isles theme.

This thread was supposed to be about whether England is more Celtic than Germanic or vice versa.

It seems to me you all are talking about everything but that.

[BlackWolf]

It went from a thread of who is more Celtic to what exactly is a Celt. I believe we agreed upon that the English have more Saxon than what was believed, but even then they still have a good bit of Brythonic Celt. Cornwall and Devon do for sure.

On Iberians being in the British Isles, there most likely are "pockets", not the Irish or Welsh as a whole. Norse, English, Danish and others all had a influence on all of the British Isle populations.

I t is good stuff, just trying to find origins of our Celtic ancestors

[Stevo]

It went from a thread of who is more Celtic to what exactly is a Celt. I believe we agreed upon that the English have more Saxon than what was believed . . .

I don't know. It depends on who is doing the believing. Some people think the Anglo-Saxons wiped out most of the Celts in what is now England and chased the rest into Wales or across the Channel into Brittany.

Personally, I think genetics has pretty much put the "wipe-out" theory to rest.

[BlackWolf]

I don't know. It depends on who is doing the believing. Some people think the Anglo-Saxons wiped out most of the Celts in what is now England and chased the rest into Wales or across the Channel into Brittany.

Personally, I think genetics has pretty much put the "wipe-out" theory to rest.

There is no doubt that Brythonic Celts moved West, at least to Devon. There is however a good deal of Celtic ancestry also in the English, I speculate about 50%, Sykes was probably off about 15%.

I would also, just speculation, that the Viking and Saxon are about 15% respectively, with the Norman, Romans and other being very low.

[Hando]

I don't think anyone ever said NO Iberians ever made it to the British Isles. I think the idea that doesn't float is the notion that the Isles were settled en masse immediately following the LGM by immigrants from the Iberian Peninsula. Obviously the British Isles, especially the western parts, were part of the Atlantic Bronze Age trading network and had contact with Iberia. But that does not mean the Isles were settled en masse by Iberians. If they ever were, there is little trace of those early settlers today.

I also think you two should really start a new thread in which you could run with your anachronistic Iberians-populated-the-British-Isles theme.

This thread was supposed to be about whether England is more Celtic than Germanic or vice versa.

It seems to me you all are talking about everything but that.

Stevo, you've made it a point to deny en masse migration of Iberians to Ireland. You've used a lot of new material and backed up your arguement that Irish are not descended from Iberians.

But could you please then tell us who the Irish are mostly descended from?
Thank you

[Stevo]

Stevo, you've made it a point to deny en masse migration of Iberians to Ireland. You've used a lot of new material and backed up your arguement that Irish are not descended from Iberians.

But could you please then tell us who the Irish are mostly descended from?
Thank you

The French archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert believed the Goidels (Gaels, Q-Celtic speaking people) came from Germany and settled in Ireland. He makes a compelling case for that in his book, History of the Celtic Peoples.

Thus far L21 variance is greatest in France and Germany, and R-L21 is by far the most frequent subclade in Ireland.

I think it likely that L21 came from France or Germany to Britain and from Britain to Ireland, perhaps with the Bronze Age Beaker Folk.