How Celtic or Germanic are the English?

[Stevo]

Your all over the place. You give evidence of Western R1b in Southwest Asia now you site the above. Total contridiction . . .

What I have posted is entirely consistent and not contradictory at all unless you mean that I am contradicting what you believed about the old R1b=Basques-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge idea.

I don't feel like repeating all the arguments and evidence I have produced already.

Perhaps now this thread could actually be returned to its original topic, which had to do not with the Irish but with the English.

[MMaddi]

Pretty fruitless results in the long run. Origin theories abound. R1b is less than 50% in Ireland, but 75% in England and darn close to 90% in Wales, Scotland and Northwestern Ireland..

What's the source for your percentages for R1b in the British Isles and Ireland? According to haplogroup maps published by Dr. Doug McDonald, a knowledgeable genetic genealogist, your figures are off, especially for Ireland.

His maps are at http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf - the map for the various nations in Europe are on page 2 of that pdf file. The map for the British Isles/Ireland indicate that Ireland has about 80% R1b, Wales the same, Scotland about 75% and England about 60%.

Of course, this does not address the question of which subclades of R1b1b2 are included in the mix in each area, which is an important question. It's the case that England has a higher level of R1b1b2a1a (U106+) - see http://www.weston-genealogy.net/R_U1...p_density.html - than the other areas mentioned, which probably has something to do with the Anglo-Saxon move into England after the Romans left. As Stevo mentioned before in this thread, R1b1b2 in the British Isles and Ireland has high levels of R1b1b2a1b (P312+) and R1b1b2a1b5 (L21+).

[BlackWolf]

What I have posted is entirely consistent and not contradictory at all unless you mean that I am contradicting what you believed about the old R1b=Basques-in-the-Iberian-Ice-Age-Refuge idea.

I don't feel like repeating all the arguments and evidence I have produced already.

Perhaps now this thread could actually be returned to its original topic, which had to do not with the Irish but with the English.

Steve, from what I have read the last couple of days all is theory.

We can neither prove nor disprove the Irish came from Iberia. You have people "guessing" age of haplotypes etc.. With the mutations of Y-DNA, genetic drift and Genghis Khan founder effects in various populations no one really knows anything about origin. I guess we can say the original R1b origin is in Central Africa among sub saharan Africans.

Maddix, I went by the maps submitted by SteveO post.

[rainbow]

If only there were a DNA Tribes autosomal study done with the English. Test at least 100 people. Test in Devon or Cornwall, and Manchester, and York and Norfolk, and in rural communites. Let's see if they get matches to Iberia in the main report and see how varied their results are in their extended panels.
The extended panel now has 1082 population categories. I have 518 matches at 1.00 and above.
My top four matches are Northeast Spain (0.39) 3,272.44, Northern Portugal (0.37) 2,946.48, Central Portugal (0.40) 2,780.33, and Northwest Spain (0.38) 2,597.15. My #518 is "Galicia, Spain (0.01) 1.00".

[BlackWolf]

If only there were a DNA Tribes autosomal study done with the English. Test at least 100 people. Test in Devon or Cornwall, and Manchester, and York and Norfolk, and in rural communites. Let's see if they get matches to Iberia in the main report and see how varied their results are in their extended panels.
The extended panel now has 1082 population categories. I have 518 matches at 1.00 and above.
My top four matches are Northeast Spain (0.39) 3,272.44, Northern Portugal (0.37) 2,946.48, Central Portugal (0.40) 2,780.33, and Northwest Spain (0.38) 2,597.15. My #518 is "Galicia, Spain (0.01) 1.00".

Well though, tribes does have London, England and their United Kingdom matches are most likely England because the y have Scotland and Wales separate. I matched nothing in Wales, England or Scotland except Dundee, Scotland.

I did have 3 Irish matches, that was all for the British Isles. I had 3 Spain, Basque, Denmark, Flemish, a couple of Norway, France and 2 Romania. My only strong was Extremadura, Spain. Next was 3 times lower and was Denmark, Basque, Sweden. Northern Irish was at number 7.

I do know a girl though from Ireland who had Spain and Basque matches.

[Stevo]

Steve, from what I have read the last couple of days all is theory.

We can neither prove nor disprove the Irish came from Iberia. You have people "guessing" age of haplotypes etc.. With the mutations of Y-DNA, genetic drift and Genghis Khan founder effects in various populations no one really knows anything about origin. I guess we can say the original R1b origin is in Central Africa among sub saharan Africans.

Maddix, I went by the maps submitted by SteveO post.

What maps are you talking about? I submitted no maps on the frequency and distribution of R1b. The only map I recall posting was Vince Vizachero's R1b1b2 diversity map, which shows that R1b1b2 is oldest in the Near East and gets younger as one moves northwest into and through Europe.

One has to look at the evidence. It isn't a matter of "Oh, we can't 'prove' anything, so let's just believe whatever makes us happy".

[BlackWolf]

I went by the link that you posted.

I looked at other map percentages today and it appears R1b compares favorable with Wales, Cornwall and Scotland in persentages at 75%. That makes sense, with more Viking R1a in parts of Scotland.

Germans, English, or anybody on continental Europe does not compare.

It appears the Irish and other British Celts "sprang" from the ground like fairies in the British Isles due to several Genghis Khan founder effects.

They do not compare favorable, not only with the Spanish, but neither Germans or French or Dutch R1b.


As I stated before, a Iberian or non Iberian origin can not be proved at this point in time.

[rainbow]

I still believe there were people living in the British Isles during the long winter (Ice Age or LGM or whatever it's called). If people could live in Siberia and Alaska and the Artic Circle, then it could have been done in the British Isles. That is how they got so pale- skinned.
In my extended report, I match all the Scotland and Wales and Ireland and United Kingdom categories and the "London, England" category. I match almost all populations from Iran and Pakistan to Iceland and Norway to Morocco and Egypt and Croatia and Estonia and Finland and Khakassia and Siberia to Alaska and Puerto Rico and Argentina and El Salvador.
My genealogical ancestry is 3/4 Northwestern European (mostly British Isles) & 1/4 Slovakian.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - a quote from Carl Sagan.

[BlackWolf]

I still believe there were people living in the British Isles during the long winter (Ice Age or LGM or whatever it's called). If people could live in Siberia and Alaska and the Artic Circle, then it could have been done in the British Isles. That is how they got so pale- skinned.
In my extended report, I match all the Scotland and Wales and Ireland and United Kingdom categories and the "London, England" category. I match almost all populations from Iran and Pakistan to Iceland and Norway to Morocco and Egypt and Croatia and Estonia and Finland and Khakassia and Siberia to Alaska and Puerto Rico and Argentina and El Salvador.
My genealogical ancestry is 3/4 Northwestern European (mostly British Isles) & 1/4 Slovakian.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - a quote from Carl Sagan.

I agree, that makes sense why it would mutate to light colored hair, eyes and in particular skin. The population must have been very low at that point during the Ice age.

The Aleut have been in North America Arctic for what 9,000 years? They are not white.

My ancestry is mostly to the British Isles, I have some Norse with Orkney Islands and German of different lines. According to tribes, about 1/16th Native American with matches to the Chol Mayan.

[rainbow]

DNA Tribes said I'm 1/8 to 1/4 Native American. My Native American panel match is to Athabaskans in Alaska.


Yes, the Aleuts are very pale skinned and so are the Northern Chinese. I think all these groups also endured the Ice Age. Why they have dark hair is a mystery. Maybe the redhair gene in some Europeans is from a mutation that happened to an isolated population as a result of being exposed to radiation of some kind from a meteor that fell somewhere in Northern Europe, or volcanic dust from thousands of years ago. And the populations with the highest percentages of redheads are Scotland and Ireland. I think they were an isolated population during the Ice Age and could have been exposed to some kind of radiation, or something, that caused the redhair and blue eyes.

[Stevo]

. . .
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - a quote from Carl Sagan.

What "absence of evidence"? There is plenty of evidence that it is not possible that R1b1b2 was in Iberia during the LGM, including the fact that R1b1b2 is not old enough to have been in Iberia or anywhere else during the LGM, because it did not yet exist.

ISOGG accepts the current consensus that R1b1b2 entered Europe from SW Asia during the Neolithic period.

In addition, as I pointed out before, large-scale autosomal studies, as opposed to lists of four or five Irish and Welsh celebrities who have dark hair and eyes, show that Northern Europeans, including those from the British Isles, cluster with other Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans cluster with other Southern Europeans.

As much as I hate to repeat myself, as I pointed out, while Iberia and the British Isles both share high frequencies of R1b1b2 of various kinds, the subclade frequencies are quite different. Iberia has a preponderance of SRY2627, P312*, and M153, while in the Isles L21, U106, and U152 prevail.

L21 appears to be the most frequent R1b1b2 subclade in the British Isles. It is not unheard of in Iberia, but it is not nearly as frequent there as it is in France, Germany, and the British Isles. L21 haplotypes in Iberia are also younger than those in neighboring France and in Germany, and about the same age as or younger than those in the Isles. So, it does not currently appear that L21 got to the British Isles from Iberia. In fact, it looks like the L21 in both Iberia and the British Isles probably came from France.

Y haplogroup I appears to be old enough in Europe to have been in Iberia during the LGM. But R1b1b2 wasn't even born yet, and its ancestors were in SW Asia at the time.

[Stevo]

I would like to add that if there is a change in the evidence, I will adjust my opinions accordingly.

We are currently recruiting men of Iberian ancestry for the R-L21 Plus Project. We have a number of them in our project who are currently awaiting SNP test results. I personally hope they are all L21+. I celebrate every time we get a new Spanish or Portuguese L21+ member.

But I have to be honest and say that the L21 haplotype variance in Iberia right now is just not comparable to that in France, where thus far the oldest L21 haplotypes are found.

Things can change, though, and I am all for learning the truth, wherever it may lead.

[rainbow]

That's comparing apples and oranges. I am talking about the redhair gene and the British Isles, not about ydna. About 1/3 of African-American men have European ydna (I bet most of it is R1b1b2), but the bulk of their autosomal genes is African. And some Native Americans and Hispanics have R1b1b2. That is because there was one man of European ancestry in their ydna line at some point, could have been 300 or 400 years ago. Then eventually there was a population explosion. The ydna doesn't determine the hair color or phenotype. If it did, then the 75% or so in Western Europe that have R1b1b2 would be redheads or blondes. Maybe the R1b1b2 in Northwestern Europe is just another population explosion from a handful of R1b men that moved to NW Europe, from wherever, thousands of years ago. Maybe the indigenous British male ydna line was ydna I or something else that is rare or now extinct. Maybe the redhair and blonde genes are from the British women who had daughters and sons by the invading R1b men.

[MMaddi]

In addition, as I pointed out before, large-scale autosomal studies, as opposed to lists of four or five Irish and Welsh celebrities who have dark hair and eyes, show that Northern Europeans, including those from the British Isles, cluster with other Northern Europeans, and Southern Europeans cluster with other Southern Europeans.

That to me is the strongest evidence you've presented which indicates that there's no special relationship between the Irish and the Spanish. There's been a lot of talk by BlackWolf and rainbow about how much R1b there is in both Ireland and Spain, but that just represents the paternal line, one out of 16 at the level of gg-grandparents and even less as you go back each generation. The autosomal studies you refer to test for 500,000 SNPs in the entire genome, not just the yDNA. So, the autosomal studies are testing the DNA inherited from all the lines in a family tree.

If these studies show that those with Irish ancestry cluster with other northern Europeans and the Spanish with southern Europeans, then it's clear that the biggest contribution for deep ancestry for the Irish is not from Spain. Unfortunately, it seems that BlackWolf and rainbow would rather trust in folklore and eye/hair color.

[MMaddi]

The ydna doesn't determine the hair color or phenotype. If it did, then the 75% or so in Western Europe that have R1b1b2 would be redheads or blondes. Maybe the R1b1b2 in Northwestern Europe is just another population explosion from a handful of R1b men that moved to NW Europe, from wherever, thousands of years ago. Maybe the indigenous British male ydna line was ydna I or something else that is rare or now extinct. Maybe the redhair and blonde genes are from the British women who had daughters and sons by the invading R1b men.

As Stevo has posted, there's ample evidence that R1b1b2 originated in what's now Turkey or nearby. Then it entered Europe through which it moved north and west. I don't think there are many blue-eyed, blond-haired men in Turkey or Greece or southern Italy where the oldest subclades of R1b1b2 are found.

So I don't see why you think that there's some sort of correlation between R1b and light eye/hair color. The correlation is between geographic location and light eye/hair color - the farther north you go, the more people have light eye/hair color. So, R1b1b2 men in southern Europe generally have dark eye/hair color and R1b1b2 men in northern Europe have higher levels of light eye/hair color.