How Celtic or Germanic are the English?

[Stevo]

. . .

Y-DNA evidence does point to a Iberian origin for the Irish, as they do match Basques most highly . . .

No, it doesn't, and they don't. You are several years behind the current state of genetic research.

Most of the Irish are R-L21, and many of them are R-M222. Those subclades are pretty rare thus far among the Basques, who have a high frequency of R-M153 and R-P312*.

The idea that the Irish and the Basques are closely related is outdated and was based on studies with 6-marker haplotypes and on the now discredited idea that "R1b" spent the last Ice Age in Iberia.

R1b (M343) wasn't anywhere near Iberia during the last Ice Age. It was R1b1b2 that entered Europe from SW Asia during the Neolithic Period and spread northwest from there.

I think I already posted the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) blurb on R1b1b2, but you apparently missed it, so here it is again.

Haplogroup R1b1b2 (M269) is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1b2a1a (P310/S129) and most European R1b1b2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1b2a1a1 (U106) or R1b1b2a1a2 (P312/S116).

[rainbow]

Who knows, maybe the latest theory about R1b being from SW Asia will be discredited in a few years.

I read that the Tocharians were ydna R1a and that the most common mtdna was East Asian C. The ancient Tocharian also had mtdna H and K, which is common in the British Isles.

I do believe that there many people of British Isles ancestry who have autosomal genes from Iberia. My Iberian DNA Tribes results are based on autosomal genes, not ydna.
I do believe that that English people are still primarily Celtic/Briton, genetically. Saxons and Normans took over the elite positions and altered the language and the British population had to adapt to the changes.

[BlackWolf]

No, it doesn't, and they don't. You are several years behind the current state of genetic research.

Most of the Irish are R-L21, and many of them are R-M222. Those subclades are pretty rare thus far among the Basques, who have a high frequency of R-M153 and R-P312*.

The idea that the Irish and the Basques are closely related is outdated and was based on studies with 6-marker haplotypes and on the now discredited idea that "R1b" spent the last Ice Age in Iberia.

R1b (M343) wasn't anywhere near Iberia during the last Ice Age. It was R1b1b2 that entered Europe from SW Asia during the Neolithic Period and spread northwest from there.

I think I already posted the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) blurb on R1b1b2, but you apparently missed it, so here it is again.

If this theory is correct there should be more R1b1 AMH in Central Germany or in the Mediterranean near Turkey.

How do we know that this was not Celts moving Eastward along the silk road?

However, German R1b does not match well with British Isle R1b and neither does Turk R1b. However Iberian is closer.

There is evidence of Celts in those areas, but there DNA does not match Irish nor Iberia. Not at all. The Southwest Asia enclave is probably ancient.

Instead, you have younger R1b to older R1b and eventually R1a moving East to West. I believe the mutations that made R1b AMH may have happened in Western Europe and spread from there.

[Hando]

It looks to me like Princes Di would represent the east of England, and (a young) Elizabeth Taylor would represent western England.

I thought Elizabeth Taylor has Jewish roots. Not indigenous English.

[gtc]

I thought Elizabeth Taylor has Jewish roots. Not indigenous English.

Her parents were Americans residing in the UK. I gather she converted to Judaism prior to marrying Eddie Fisher.

[Stevo]

Here is Vince Vizachero's R1b1b2 diversity map. It shows that the most diverse (i.e., the oldest) R1b1b2 haplotypes are in the East, and the least diverse (the youngest) are in the West.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6b1a6e6a41&view=att&th=1266229e84035fd1&attid=0.2&disp=inline&zw

Here it is in gray scale:

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6b1a6e6a41&view=att&th=1266229e84035fd1&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Here is the study A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages, which concluded that R1b1b2 probably entered Europe from SW Asia during the Neolithic Period.

[Stevo]

Here is Vince Vizachero's R1b1b2 diversity map. It shows that the most diverse (i.e., the oldest) R1b1b2 haplotypes are in the East, and the least diverse (the youngest) are in the West.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6b1a6e6a41&view=att&th=1266229e84035fd1&attid=0.2&disp=inline&zw

Here it is in gray scale:

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6b1a6e6a41&view=att&th=1266229e84035fd1&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

Here is the study A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages, which concluded that R1b1b2 probably entered Europe from SW Asia during the Neolithic Period.

It is also important to mention that the R1b SNP trail leads from East to West, as well. In other words, as one moves from east to west across Eurasia, R1b moves up the tree from the roots. Eastern R1b (most of which is P310-) parts company with western R1b (almost all of which is P310+) nearer the roots of the R1b tree.

That indicates that R1b began in Asia and moved west. The eastern stuff is essentially older. Some of the R1b in Central Asia is M73+, as a matter of fact.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Please note that a "tree" presented in chart or list form (like the ISOGG R tree) is upside down, with the oldest stuff (the "roots") at the top. A more literal presentation would have the roots at the bottom (like a real tree). That is why I said that moving toward the newer clades is moving "up" the tree from the roots (the older stuff).

[gtc]

It is also important to mention that the R1b SNP trail leads from East to West, as well. In other words, as one moves from east to west across Eurasia, R1b moves up the tree from the roots. Eastern R1b (most of which is P310-) parts company with western R1b (almost all of which is P310+) nearer the roots of the R1b tree.

That indicates that R1b began in Asia and moved west. The eastern stuff is essentially older. Some of the R1b in Central Asia is M73+, as a matter of fact.

This was useful to me in the beginning, especially the audio-slide presentation at the top. It's possibly considered a bit dated now ...

http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=11

[BlackWolf]

This was useful to me in the beginning, especially the audio-slide presentation at the top. It's possibly considered a bit dated now ...

http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=11

What is interesting about the R1b map is that the French and English have more R1b than the Irish as a total!

It has been a while since I studied R1b, so yes I am behind, however the two newest papers contridict each other. One stating the theory SteveO posted, and the other the LGM theory again. It is not that R1b travelled from West to East, but that the AMH developed during the LGM that would contribute to that, not that specific Hapoltypes can not develop in specific nations like Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Eurasia but much published discussion concerning R1b has surrounded the direction and timing of R1b entry into Europe. Since 2010 two major scientific papers have been published discussing this subject one of them (which has been criticized published in January stated that ‘’perhaps R1b entered Europe from Asia more recently, perhaps in the Neolithic’’[6] however another paper published in May contradicted this and stated that perhaps "R1b, or at least the majority of it in Europe, dispersed from Iberia after the Last Glacial Maximum, after having come from western Asia much earlier and states evidence of two separate R1b dispersals in the Mesolithic period, one from Anatolia, and one from Iberia".

[Stevo]

That Wikipedia article isn't much good. Notice that the paper that is supposed to contradict the Neolithic entry of R1b1b2 into Europe is not named or actually cited?

One has to use a fudge factor of three or more to make R1b1b2 old enough to have been anywhere (let alone Iberia) during the last Ice Age.

[Stevo]

This was useful to me in the beginning, especially the audio-slide presentation at the top. It's possibly considered a bit dated now ...

http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=11

Nicely done, but, yeah, seriously outdated now.

[BlackWolf]

Actually, looking at that map with the English at 75% R1b that sure does look favorable with Sykes original theory because R1b does not reach that level nowhere in Germany.

Does it reach that level in Belgium or the Netherlands?

It says the Irish have pockets of R1b with high density in the North and Northwest. It was also almost 75% R1b for Scotland.

Hmmm, somewhere a invasion took place, and being it did not come from England or Scotland....where and who? Vikings could not contribute 50% input. But they did have many settlements in East Ireland.

The R1b in Ireland should be in the east, not the West and North, it looks like non R1b invaders came from the South.

[Stevo]

Actually, looking at that map with the English at 75% R1b that sure does look favorable with Sykes original theory because R1b does not reach that level nowhere in Germany.

Does it reach that level in Belgium or the Netherlands?

It says the Irish have pockets of R1b with high density in the North and Northwest. It was also almost 75% R1b for Scotland.

Hmmm, somewhere a invasion took place, and being it did not come from England or Scotland....where and who? Vikings could not contribute 50% input. But they did have many settlements in East Ireland.

The R1b in Ireland should be in the east, not the West and North, it looks like non R1b invaders came from the South.

You cannot judge the origin of a haplogroup by its modern frequency. You have to look at its age and its SNP trail, among other things. Haplogroups tend to pool up at the bag-ends of peninsulas, on islands, and in isolated locations due to things like founder effect and genetic drift.

High frequencies of haplogroups and subclades far from their places of origin can also be due to a phenomenon known as the genetic wave of advance:

For example, mutations arising in populations at the edge of a range expansion can sometimes surf on the wave of advance, and thus reach a larger spatial distribution and a much higher frequency than would be expected in stationary populations.

The outdated idea of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge" for R1b was not created by Sykes. It is pretty much dead but still stumbles around from time to time like some kind of voodoo-animated Caribbean zombie. Occasionally someone will trot it back out and argue for it a la "Weekend at Bernie's".

Regarding the R1b1b2 in Ireland: it is mostly R-L21. Thus far the oldest R-L21 is found in France, followed closely by Germany. The R-L21 in England and Scotland is older than that in Ireland. The R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula is younger than that in France, and, as I recall, about the same age as the R-L21 in the British Isles.

[BlackWolf]

You cannot judge the origin of a haplogroup by its modern frequency. You have to look at its age and its SNP trail, among other things. Haplogroups tend to pool up at the bag-ends of peninsulas, on islands, and in isolated locations due to things like founder effect and genetic drift. High frequencies of haplogroups and subclades far from their places of origin can also be due to a phenomenon known as the genetic wave of advance: The outdated idea of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge" for R1b was not created by Sykes. It is pretty much dead but still stumbles around from time to time like some kind of voodoo-animated Caribbean zombie. Occasionally someone will trot it back out and argue for it a la "Weekend at Bernie's". Regarding the R1b1b2 in Ireland: it is mostly R-L21. Thus far the oldest R-L21 is found in France, followed closely by Germany. The R-L21 in England and Scotland is older than that in Ireland. The R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula is younger than that in France, and, as I recall, about the same age as the R-L21 in the British Isles.

Your all over the place. You give evidence of Western R1b in Southwest Asia now you site the above. Total contridiction. I by the way agree with above to a point. With the mutations of Y-DNA, which are relative fast, you could and I believe it did, have several founder effects in Ireland for R1b. BUT, in regards to the non R1b which is not evene as high as Germany and which the Scots have nearly 80% has to mean that not only are these totally different modern populations but probably were in the beginning. The Scots came from Northern Ireland when they migrated there so West to East was not uncommon, Saxons in Translyvania, Vikings in the Black Sea, Visigoths in Spain. As you have stated above, you can neither prove or diapprove that the Irish cam from Iberia. But there is something to oral history. The ancient Irish legends state that at least one of the trbes that make up the modern Irish came from Spain. Now the Irish are known for tall tales, but when it comes to their ancestors I dont think they would lie. Now that being said, I wonder how the R1b in Galatia in Norhwest Spain compare to the Irish? I wonder why the R1b in Ireland as a total is not at the same level as many other nations. If R1b did not come from Iberia did some of the non R1b come from there? Probably

[BlackWolf]

Pretty fruitless results in the long run. Origin theories abound. R1b is less than 50% in Ireland, but 75% in England and darn close to 90% in Wales, Scotland and Northwestern Ireland..

There are different clades in each nation and all are unique populations.

Admixture has been occuring since at least the Stone age with Norse, Gemans, Danes, Dutch, French and yes Spanish as there are Iberian haplotypes in all of these nations.

The Irish, are more admixture if one goes by strict Haplotypes than the English. The English compare favorable with the Dutch, which makes perfect sense.

Celt, is a cuture, not a people. It is seen in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Brittney, Northwest Spain, and various Islands in the British Isles.

The ethnic origins of each "Celtic" nation being in their homelands