Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

R1b

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • R1b

    The new theory is that R1b is thought to have come from Turkey 6000 years ago!!Only 15% of males in Turkey are R1b.So, for every 100 farmers that left Turkey 15 of them were R1b. How did they become the strongest Haplogroup in Iberia?They walked a long way and why did they choose Iberia over all other places? Some people keep writing about us being descended from M269 but we all carry the SNPs in our genes from the first R man that ever lived.

  • #2
    Well if 15% of current male population of Turkey is R1b you can't really use this to extrapolate the percentage population that was R1b 3,000 years ago. Why?

    Well because Turkey is somewhat of a crossroads location wise. There has been a fair bit of migration in and out of it. Also more then likely the location in Turkey that's been fingered as likely location is "Eastern Anatolia" which was predominately Armenian until 200-100years ago.

    1,000 years ago the dominant languages in what is now Turkey were the following:
    Greek (over most of modern Turkey)
    Armenian (eastern modern Turkey)
    Syriac (Assyrian -- south eastern modern Turkey)
    and probaly Kurdish (south-east as well)

    three of these languages are Indo-European (Greek, Armenian and Kurdish) the fourth is Semitic (Syriac)

    The Turks were another 50years away from arriving into Anatolia having originated in Central Asia.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dubhthach View Post
      Well if 15% of current male population of Turkey is R1b you can't really use this to extrapolate the percentage population that was R1b 3,000 years ago. Why?

      Well because Turkey is somewhat of a crossroads location wise. There has been a fair bit of migration in and out of it. Also more then likely the location in Turkey that's been fingered as likely location is "Eastern Anatolia" which was predominately Armenian until 200-100years ago.

      1,000 years ago the dominant languages in what is now Turkey were the following:
      Greek (over most of modern Turkey)
      Armenian (eastern modern Turkey)
      Syriac (Assyrian -- south eastern modern Turkey)
      and probaly Kurdish (south-east as well)

      three of these languages are Indo-European (Greek, Armenian and Kurdish) the fourth is Semitic (Syriac)

      The Turks were another 50years away from arriving into Anatolia having originated in Central Asia.

      Language has nothing to do with dna. All of the people in Ireland speak English but that doesnt mean that they are of English descent.
      What I was saying in my post is that after 6000 years in Iberia R1b is 90% and if R1b originated in Turkey it is only 15% now.If the haplogroup was 15% 6000 years ago then only 15 out of every 100 men that went west were
      R1b. How did they come to dominate that region?
      I mentioned Turkey because that is where some people say that the M269 farmers came from and it is hard to believe that they were all R1b people!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Part of my point is the disappearance of the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia. The "Armenian modal haplotype" belongs to R1b. It's not a case of the Armenian population been assimilated wholesale into by Turkish language. As we know they suffered Genocide. Ergo the level of R1b was reduced in what is now modern Turkey over the last 200 years by

        1. Mass migration from "Western Armenia" of Armenians into Imperial Russia after the Russian takeover of the south Caucasus from Iran in early 19th century. Likewise the Russians encourage mass-migration of Muslim subject people from the Caucasus to Turkey (two way population change)
        2. The Armenian genocide which started 95 years ago and which had been proceed by pogroms in 1895 as well. Anywhere up to 2million dead.
        3. Post the First world war there was a massive population-exchange between Greece and Turkey, numbering at least 2million people

        The census of Turkey puts the population at 13.5million in 1927. Overall probably 2/3rds of what it was in 1912.

        Geographically Turkey is a big country, the western parts are genetically similar to Greece after all it was greek inhabited in parts for 3,000 years. The sourthern parts would have high levels of connection to middle east through Syriac and Arab populations. I believe most studies are talking about the "Armenian plateau" or as people tend to call it these days the "Anatolian plateau" as a possible source for R1b.

        Comment


        • #5
          Do yourselves a favor and read Jean Manco's The Peopling of Europe.

          I think you will find it a pleasure to read as well as extremely informative.

          Also check out this R1b1b2 Diversity Map.

          The oldest R1b1b2 (that with the greatest haplotype diversity) is shaded red. The bluer shades represent the youngest R1b1b2.

          Thus you can see that the progress of R1b1b2 into Europe was from the Southeast to the Northwest.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stevo View Post
            Do yourselves a favor and read Jean Manco's The Peopling of Europe.

            I think you will find it a pleasure to read as well as extremely informative.

            Also check out this R1b1b2 Diversity Map.

            The oldest R1b1b2 (that with the greatest haplotype diversity) is shaded red. The bluer shades represent the youngest R1b1b2.

            Thus you can see that the progress of R1b1b2 into Europe was from the Southeast to the Northwest.
            I am not interested in reading the rubbish that Jean Manco writes and R1b1b2 is descended from R1b.You keep talking about it as if they are two different groups.R1b entered Europe 25,000 years ago.It is still on my home page at ftdna.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              I am not interested in reading the rubbish that Jean Manco writes and R1b1b2 is descended from R1b.You keep talking about it as if they are two different groups.R1b entered Europe 25,000 years ago.It is still on my home page at ftdna.
              Of course, R1b1b2 is descended from R1b, but R1b isn't 25,000 years old, and it was R1b1b2 that entered Europe, not R1b. And R1b1b2 is a different group than R1b, a descendant group, just as you are not your ggg-grandfather, even though you are his descendant.

              FTDNA hasn't updated that homepage in awhile.

              Karafet et al dated the age of R1 (M173) to about 18,000 years ago. Since R1b (M343) cannot be older than its ancestor R1, R1b cannot be 25,000 years old. Please notice that one of the authors of Karafet et al was Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona and FTDNA.

              I will post again what appears on the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) R Tree page about R1b1b2, since it represents the current state of knowledge and, like Jean Manco's excellent work, is supported by a lengthy bibliography.

              Haplogroup R1b1b2 (M269) is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1b2a1a (P310/S129) and most European R1b1b2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1b2a1a1 (U106) or R1b1b2a1a2 (P312/S116).
              The bolding and underlining are mine, for emphasis.
              Last edited by Stevo; 23 June 2010, 01:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                I can read and I dont need you to emphasise anything.I didnt see the Scientists name anywhere.Did you forget to put it in?
                Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Im sure I have spent as much money as you on tests.If R1b entered Europe 4000 years ago then I would like to see it on my homepage.

                Comment


                • #9
                  From the top of Karafet et al:

                  New binary polymorphisms reshape and increase resolution of the human Y chromosomal haplogroup tree

                  Tatiana M. Karafet1, Fernando L. Mendez1,2, Monica B. Meilerman1, Peter A. Underhill3, Stephen L. Zegura4, and Michael F. Hammer 1,2,4,5

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You have no way of knowing that the percent was the same some thousand of years ago as it is now. That region has been historically very active with several waves of migrations that could have changed the gene pool. It is as if you'd expect the percent of the Native Americans to be 100% in the Americas because it was so several thousand years ago, but you'd be surprised it is not.

                    It is also possible that the people who decided to leave belonged to a group that had a much higher incidence of one haplogroup than the entire region( the distance for choosing a mate was small). So if you have a group with a high incidence of a haplogroup that moves to a remote region chances are the percent within that population will go up because of the furthered reduced combinations.( Say you have a group with mostly blond hair and blue eyes leaving an area where most people have brown hair and green/brown eyes. I can assure you the new population will mostly have blue eyes/blond hair.)


                    I have no idea why Iberia. There were no passports, no borders, no maps so they probably just followed food/water sources and land that was not too crowded or not occupied at all. They walked a long way, but not in a day. It's not like they took off from Turkey and landed several hours later after some peanuts and a soda.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why are you so angry?

                      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      I can read and I dont need you to emphasise anything.I didnt see the Scientists name anywhere.Did you forget to put it in?
                      Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Im sure I have spent as much money as you on tests.If R1b entered Europe 4000 years ago then I would like to see it on my homepage.
                      It's not Stevo's company or otherwise.

                      The DNA migratory patterns seem to suggest a westerly movement regarding R1b1b2. That was the point. I do not happen to agree with some of the science myself, but that is only after I read some of the results and books that are available.

                      Languages can give us anthropological insight that we can pair with dna and compile and compare it with raw data. One thing that many are not want to do in this community is to consider the anthropology behind the statistics. I have had some furious debates with people about this in here and they feel that since the current data is not reflective of x,y,and z, then it cannot be, and I maintain that the sample pools are too small to tell us the big picture. I still maintain this point but only after familiarising myself with the data.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Zaru View Post
                        Languages can give us anthropological insight that we can pair with dna and compile and compare it with raw data. One thing that many are not want to do in this community is to consider the anthropology behind the statistics.
                        Well put. A study of anthropology is required in order to try to make sense of deep clade results, and that requires considerable reading during which many competing theories emerge. Linguistics, archaeology, paleontology, history and even mythology all contribute hints to what may have been. I've found that there are no quick and reliable answers. It takes a lot of reading; more than many are prepared to do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are a lot of guys out there who really liked the old "Cro Magnon R1b" idea and got attached to it. Some folks really liked the idea of being the "aboriginal Europeans". It might be hard to let that go and trade it for a more recent origin in what is now Turkey among the first sod-busters.

                          I mean, here in Virginia we hunt turkey!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tribes

                            Weren't all human beings tribes once? While your all discussing the origins of R1b I have 2 R1b who's your daddy Issues. I cant figure out daddy so figuring out if we came from Turkey is the last thing on my mind.

                            And if you need a good hunting place for Turkey, come on down to NC. We have lots of wild Turkey running around on my road.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've never shot a Turkey...

                              but I've certainly have had a shot of a Wild one.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X