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Help! Origins of Haplogroup K

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  • Help! Origins of Haplogroup K

    Does anyone have anything on Y Haplogroup K? I've tried searching the web and have found nothing.

    It seems like such a mystery to me. From a map I downloaded, I see that it is present in the highest percentages in Italy, Portugal and Lithuania !?!?!

    Any ideas?

  • #2
    Y-DNA Haplogroup K is a parent haplogroup

    Originally posted by Mikey
    Does anyone have anything on Y Haplogroup K? I've tried searching the web and have found nothing.

    It seems like such a mystery to me. From a map I downloaded, I see that it is present in the highest percentages in Italy, Portugal and Lithuania !?!?!

    Any ideas?
    Hi Mikey,

    The map you are looking at,..is it one of the ones by J.D. Mcdonald?,.do you have the pdf that has all three maps, or are you looking at the one of just Europe.?
    Now, the next bit will probably be easier to follow if you have a good look at the YCC paper Y haplogroup tree...
    Haplogroup K is an old haplogroup which is not monophyletic. It is the parent haplogroup of haplogroups L,M,N,O,P (P which in turn includes Q & R).
    Haplogroup K has a wide distribution, being most common in Papua New Guinea. That doesn't however mean that the haplogroup K in PNG is closely related to the haplogroup K in Europe, - the haplogroup K in Europe might be more closely related to the haplogroups derived from it in Europe eg. haplogroup P, L, & N and the haplogroup K in PNG might be more closely related to haplogroups M & O. Basically the haplogroup K that has extra mutations that let us see how its differentiated out have been given their own haplogroup labels (ie. L,M,N,O,P), and the haplogroup K that hasn't got extra mutations is in haplogroup K.
    Another thing to remember is that it might not be haplogroup K present in those places - it might be that the researchers are lumping the results in K*, when they really mean K(xR) - ie they tested the marker that defines the k branch, they tested the marker for the P branch, but didn't test the markers for L, M, N, or O.

    Let me know if i've confused you totally & I'll try to explain it a different way.

    Angela.

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    • #3
      Angela - thank you SOOO much for the reply.

      BUT, I am totally confused.

      I do have the 2004 JD McDonald PDF. Funny that you mention it, I now see K on Papua New Guinea. I had focused only on the Euro page before.

      But I still do not understand - here is my summary, tell me if I am correct - is K (for YCs) kind of like L3 or M and N (in mito), in that it is ancestral to a whole bunch of others?

      Or is K kind of like a lump of all Haps that do not bear a distinguishing mutation?

      Or both?

      Thanks so much...

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh, and what's the dominant theory about the origin of K? (You may have answered this in your reply)

        Are these like, the unmutated descendants of the first males out of Africa?

        Kind of cool...

        Comment


        • #5
          Both

          Originally posted by Mikey
          But I still do not understand - here is my summary, tell me if I am correct - is K (for YCs) kind of like L3 or M and N (in mito), in that it is ancestral to a whole bunch of others?

          Or is K kind of like a lump of all Haps that do not bear a distinguishing mutation?

          Or both?
          Its both. Basically K is like a superhaplogroup. Its defined by the mutuation known as M9. The subclades within K that have additional defining mutations have their own haplotype labels,..whereas those that don't (or do, but for only tiny branches) are lumped in K.

          K is more or less a "brother" clade to clades G, H, I & J,...which all in turn at some stage differentiated off from superhaplogroup clade F.

          Origin of K? ...um,...I'll get back to you after I've recovered from battling with the bureaucracy of UPS Denmark (likewise, my next installment in the Hap I/Indo-European thread will be after said recovery).


          Angela.

          Comment


          • #6
            Maps can be misleading

            Hi Mikey,

            The origin of haplogroup K was most likely in a population of people that contained a fair percentage of haplogroup F (K is derived from F). At the time that the first man had the M9 mutation, this population probably lived in North East Africa. The main explansion of K is thought to have occurred in Asia.

            I thought again what you were asking about K being a "waste basket" diagnosis (in much the same way Oxford ancestors does for haplogroup H for example).

            Was it this comment of mine that made you ask?

            Another thing to remember is that it might not be haplogroup K present in those places - it might be that the researchers are lumping the results in K*, when they really mean K(xR) - ie they tested the marker that defines the k branch, they tested the marker for the P branch, but didn't test the markers for L, M, N, or O
            I probably didn't write this correctly - In studies in most cases they don't use K as a waste basket category per se, - they will in most cases specify, for example K(xR) - which is something they'd do if they specifically tested the marker for the K branch (M9), tested the marker for the R branch (M207), but not any of the markers for the branches nested within the K clade........

            The maps done by J.D McDonald are great!,..no doubt about the fact he's done a great job. Maps like these are wonderful for presenting data - able to be easily comprehended visually. However, there are limitations and draw backs to piecharts (something they drummed into our brains when teaching us data analysis & data presentation).

            For one, (& i believe I've read Doug make exactly this comment), its a bit difficult to put on a pie graph a category written in the paper as K(xR). These just got lumped under K (what else could he do?).

            So in a way its almost like a waste basket haplogroup, but it isn't really.

            However, no matter how well done, pie graphs can be misleading, - especially where lower percentages are concerned. On a pie graph 0% and 1% (and even 5%) look very similar........

            I'll continue this train of thought in the I thread...... (I'm getting to it, - just needed my brain to recharge & also to read a bit more of that IE book of mine)....

            Angela.

            Comment


            • #7
              Wastebasket

              Angela,

              The concept of geneticists and testers lumping a bunch of "K" branches together or even having an "anything else"/catch-all category is a bit troubling to me.

              I am sure I do not understand it perfectly, but the fact that such a thing as Hap K exists really diminishes the concept of Haplogroups.

              That is, let's say plain Hap K originated in 10,000 BC. (Hap K individuals had a common ancestor then).

              Then in 8000 BC, an offshoot developed. We'll call it Hap J. (I know these may not be accurate, but it could be any letter).

              Then in 7500 BC, one of the little, tiny, Hap K, sub-clades developed, one too insignificant to be its own Hap group.

              A test lumping a subject from the 7500 BC mutation into Hap K is really inaccurate. Though he does not share the 8000 BC mutation, his most recent common ancestor ("son of Adam") would be with THAT OTHER Haplogroup ("J" in my example), rather than generic Hap K (at 10 kya).

              Does this make sense?

              Comment


              • #8
                Y-DNA haplogroup K-M9

                I have a male ancestor that was born in Sulawesi late 1600's and are of haplogroup K-M9. There is some controversy about whether his paternal lineage was Indonesian or European. I know he spoke Portuguese (Portugal traded with Sulawesi since 1511), and I see on the McDonald map some haplogroup K individuals do originate from Portugal too. Is there a way I can determine if he has Portuguese or Indonesian K-M9 DNA?
                Is the Portuguese haplogroup K of a particular sub-haplogoup, or does it have any defining markers?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mikey View Post
                  Does anyone have anything on Y Haplogroup K? I've tried searching the web and have found nothing.

                  It seems like such a mystery to me. From a map I downloaded, I see that it is present in the highest percentages in Italy, Portugal and Lithuania !?!?!

                  Any ideas?
                  99% of all men living in western Europe today belong to K2b2!!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    99% of all men living in western Europe today belong to K2b2!!!!
                    In K2b2 there is P and then its "children" R and Q . it is not 99% of western Europe.

                    what about K1 which is T and L

                    what about K2 which is N and O

                    what about K which has G, H, I and J

                    then there is the african E which is in Europe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bartot View Post
                      In K2b2 there is P and then its "children" R and Q . it is not 99% of western Europe.

                      what about K1 which is T and L

                      what about K2 which is N and O

                      what about K which has G, H, I and J

                      then there is the african E which is in Europe
                      My mistake, K2b2 is the ancestor of P and Q and their descendants couldn't be 99% but perhaps 50%.

                      Comment

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