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  • My Deep Clade R is finally finished.

    After 5 long months my Deep Clade R test is finished, I am R1b1b2a1b*/R-P312/S116 and new to the forum. My paternal lineage comes from Yorkshire, England (I'm not sure if we're originally from the East or the West Riding since as far back as I can find records the family has been moving between Whitgift, Blacktoft, and Stainforth).

    I have a few questions regarding my result of R1b1b2a1b*.

    I have read some online sites like Eupedia which claim R-P312 "only dates back to approximately 3500 to 3000 BCE, the first person who carried the mutation R-P312/S116 lived at least 5,000 years ago, assumably somewhere in the lower Danube valley or around the Black Sea." - (Eupedia on R1b)

    I am curious if anyone here could direct me to some official sources making this claim? I'm looking for as accurate info as possible as I am wanting to put together a Genealogy book for the folks that includes our Y-DNA info.

    I am also curious what group or groups would have been responsible for bringing an unmutated R1b1b2a1b* into Yorkshire, England. I've read some online theories which pertain to the subclades of R1b1b2a1b*, but nothing mentioning those who are unmutated beyond that point.

    Thanks for your time in reading this message.

  • #2
    I suggest that you compare eupedia, wikipedia, & ISOGG.

    I consider P312 to have arisen about 4,500 years ago, but that is just because it is what the websites suggest.

    Timothy Peterman

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Barreldriver View Post
      After 5 long months my Deep Clade R test is finished, I am R1b1b2a1b*/R-P312/S116
      How far below P312/S116 did the tests extend, and return negatives, before they assigned the *?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by gtc View Post
        How far below P312/S116 did the tests extend, and return negatives, before they assigned the *?
        All sublcades on the haplotree. My Deep Clade test is 100% done unless I order under advanced orders, which seems to be a gamble to me as you'd be paying up that extra dough without the guarantee of being positive for the SNP's you are purchasing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
          I suggest that you compare eupedia, wikipedia, & ISOGG.

          I consider P312 to have arisen about 4,500 years ago, but that is just because it is what the websites suggest.

          Timothy Peterman
          Those are the places I had checked, with ISOGG I didn't find much outside of just the haplotree, no real in depth explaining, Wikipedia didn't go far with P312 outside of saying that it's one heck of a dominant clade, Eupedia is where I got most of my information from but I've heard it to be rather controversial.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Barreldriver View Post
            All sublcades on the haplotree. My Deep Clade test is 100% done unless I order under advanced orders, which seems to be a gamble to me as you'd be paying up that extra dough without the guarantee of being positive for the SNP's you are purchasing.
            Yes, it is a gamble, but then somebody has to do it.

            I've taken all the advanced SNP tests that are applicable to me, but am still stuck at L48. If a new SNP emerges under L48 that may apply, then I'll test again because L48 tells me nothing about my deep ancestry that I didn't already know.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by gtc View Post
              Yes, it is a gamble, but then somebody has to do it.

              I've taken all the advanced SNP tests that are applicable to me, but am still stuck at L48. If a new SNP emerges under L48 that may apply, then I'll test again because L48 tells me nothing about my deep ancestry that I didn't already know.
              I'm hoping to do the applicable tests when I get some more cash. I'm wanting to find out as much as possible so I can put together a genealogical book for the folks with special focus on our paternal origins, as we are a patrilinear bunch, mapping our legacy from Yorkshire into the Appalachian Mountains.

              I was rather hoping my Y-DNA results would have helped me in determining which of the ancient populations in Yorkshire I descended from but I was expecting too much it seems.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Barreldriver View Post
                I'm hoping to do the applicable tests when I get some more cash.
                Now that I no longer throw away money on cigarettes and whiskey and wild, wild women, I can afford to fund my hobbies, such as DNA testing.

                I was rather hoping my Y-DNA results would have helped me in determining which of the ancient populations in Yorkshire I descended from but I was expecting too much it seems.
                I get the feeling from other forums that there are quite a few resident Yorkshiremen who have an interest in their deep ancestry. The "Walk Through the Y" (WTY) project, where ~50,000 base pairs were tested in one go, held out some hope of major breakthroughs, but I get the impression that project has run out of steam -- or run out of volunteers at $750 per test.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by gtc View Post
                  Now that I no longer throw away money on cigarettes and whiskey and wild, wild women, I can afford to fund my hobbies, such as DNA testing.
                  My money typically went towards chaw, whiskey, beer, pipe tobacco, swords (real ones, not wall decorations), and of course martial arts.



                  I get the feeling from other forums that there are quite a few resident Yorkshiremen who have an interest in their deep ancestry.
                  Eiup, I wish the paper trails went a bit farther to help, as it's one thing to be confident that ancestors were in Yorkshire from 1575 on up, but prior to that? Who knows, could be from anywhere else in the Isle's but there's know way to tell.


                  The "Walk Through the Y" (WTY) project, where ~50,000 base pairs were tested in one go, held out some hope of major breakthroughs, but I get the impression that project has run out of steam -- or run out of volunteers at $750 per test.
                  I contemplated doing the WTY way back but could not afford it, if I was going to choke out that much money I'd assume doing the 23andMe test which does more than Y-DNA.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Barreldriver View Post
                    Eiup, I wish the paper trails went a bit farther to help, as it's one thing to be confident that ancestors were in Yorkshire from 1575 on up, but prior to that? Who knows, could be from anywhere else in the Isle's but there's know way to tell.
                    There's been more than one suggestion for a return of "resurrection men", to extract DNA from the remains of "nobles" whose deep ancestry is well documented.

                    However, apart from the difficulty of extracting viable DNA, there's the problem of the churches who take the line that their role is to allow the dead to RIP.

                    I contemplated doing the WTY way back but could not afford it, if I was going to choke out that much money I'd assume doing the 23andMe test which does more than Y-DNA.
                    I've done the full enchilada at 23andMe, back when it was on special.

                    Until recently, I was giving thought to funding a WTY on myself, but I'm now thinking that the money would be better spent on the "next big thing", whatever that turns out to be.

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                    • #11
                      Barrledriver, after numerous weeks of waiting I got a result similar to yours, R P-312, negative for everything downstream of that. My paternal line comes from Wales, as far as I can tell. I am from the USA. All my close hits at FTDNA are names Williams. And there aren't very many of those.

                      I recommend you do trial-and-error research, like me, at the YHRD web site. It has improved a lot over time. You can search by country. I found that most of my close hits on their data base were from South of Spain and Portugal, which is strange. There must be a story there. You may also find some sort of geographical connection further back than you can trace via the paper trail.

                      Ultimately, I think people who test negative for everything more specific than R P-312 just have to wait, because there will be new SNPs discovered which will tell a better story.

                      Good luck.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ceking View Post
                        Barrledriver, after numerous weeks of waiting I got a result similar to yours, R P-312, negative for everything downstream of that. My paternal line comes from Wales, as far as I can tell. I am from the USA. All my close hits at FTDNA are names Williams. And there aren't very many of those.

                        I recommend you do trial-and-error research, like me, at the YHRD web site. It has improved a lot over time. You can search by country. I found that most of my close hits on their data base were from South of Spain and Portugal, which is strange. There must be a story there. You may also find some sort of geographical connection further back than you can trace via the paper trail.

                        Ultimately, I think people who test negative for everything more specific than R P-312 just have to wait, because there will be new SNPs discovered which will tell a better story.

                        Good luck.
                        I've been doing searches like that on an STR base. My matches are never greater than 25 out of 37 so I'm the first in my lineage to test. My matches range from Britain, to Iberia, to Scandinavia, to Germany, and oddly to Russia.

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                        • #13
                          My Ellis family from Wales is also P312*

                          I have also noticed some matches in Spain. Wales is known to have had a society that was part Brythonic Celt & part Roman. I suspect that the Romans preferred sending "Roman" soldiers there that were actually Celtic, perhaps from Iberia.

                          Over on the Irish side, we have the wave of settlement by the Milesians. Tradition has it that their leader, Milesius, had a nickname that simply meant "soldier from Spain, in the long form, "Milespanius".

                          Timothy Peterman

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                          • #14
                            One of my stronger matches was a Welsh lineage, they did not have a deep clade listed though.

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                            • #15
                              If you are searching STR databases like YHRD, I suggest using as few values as possible instead of all 37. YHRD lets you search with seven or nine as well as many more. If your DNA is fairly rare, then you shouldn't be overwhelmed with matches. Use as few as you can use. What I was looking for was a way trace the migration of my paternal line since there is no recent SNP mutation. That's what I understood you to be looking for too. So it's helpful to get just a handful of matches if they are all in one general location.

                              If you have the majority of your matches are in Iberia, it would not necessarily be strange to have a few outliers thoughout Europe. A lot of scholars still think populations expanded from there before and during the bronze age. There has always been traffic up the Atlantic coast, as well.

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