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Unexpected Haplogroup mismatch

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  • Unexpected Haplogroup mismatch

    My uncle's deep clade results were determined a while back to be R-L23*; I even had his results added to the R ht35 project.

    Recently, I began comparing his y-str 67 marker results to other families of interest that are R P312+ and he seemed to fit into this cluster, in some cases even showing an affinity to L21* results.

    The surname is Robinson & moved from the British Isles to Virginia in the 1600s.

    I have long been a bit skeptical of my uncle's place as an outlier to the R1b world, wondering if Family Tree DNA somehow got it wrong.

    Recently, another person in the Robinson DNA project had the deep clade test done & he came back as R U106+. He & my uncle have both been assigned to the John Robinson of Goochland Co., VA group. The genetic distance between the two of them is only 4 out of 67 markers.

    Assuming that the SNP tests are right, I think it would be implausible that the two could have such a high degree of convergence. Similarly, assuming that the y-str results are right, I think it would be highly implausible that in my uncle's case, that U106, L11, P310, P311, and L51 could have all reversed themselves, especially whn one considers that this would have had to have happened within the last 300 years.

    I have asked Family Tree DNA to look into this & ascertain a cause for the haplogroup divergence.

    Has anyone else ever dealt with a situation like this?

    Timothy Peterman

  • #2
    Are you certain that that the deep clade results are final? Did they actually return results already showing P312- and U106-? It may be that your uncle does not have results for all the SNPs tested in the deep clade test.

    If he does have complete results and still is classified as R-L23* by FTDNA, then it sounds like something is wrong. In general, you can't tell one R1b1b2 subclade from another based on STR results, even at 67 markers. There is one notable exception, which is DYS492. About 95% of U106+ men have DYS492=13; the strong modal value for DYS492 in all other R1b1b2 subclades is 12. So what's your uncle's value for DYS492?

    In any case, if he has a 63/67 match with someone who is U106+, this needs to be looked into. It's generally thought that such a small genetic distance at 67 markers strongly implies a common ancestor within the last few hundred years. And that means the same subclade.

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    • #3
      My uncle is 12 at DYS 492. Family Tree DNA is going to retest the other person to see if he is really U106+

      My uncles deep SNP was done a while back; whenever Family Tree DNA began offering subclade tests for P312, U106, L11, etc., etc.

      My uncle's deep SNP results are negative for: L11, L50, L51, L52, M126, M153, M160, M18, M222, M37, M65, M73, P310, P311, P312, P66, SRY2627, U106, U152, & U198.

      I've been doing an analysis of several surnames within my project (Peterman) that are R1b, deep SNP done, & tested to 67 markers. I've been estimating the MRCA using both Chandler/ Little values & FTDNATIP (98% confidence).

      The families of interest are:
      M269+, L23* Robinson
      M269+, L23+, L51* Eagleton
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312* Roley
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312* Ellis
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312+, U152+, L2* Hall
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312+, U152+, L2+, L20* Petermann
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312+, L21* Wilson
      M269+, L23+, L51+, L11+, P312+, L21* Bauguess

      Eagleton usually appears to be outlier, but Robinson shows an affinity to the P312 group, & in some cases the L21 group. Of course, this could be convergence.

      The following are the y-str values for Robinson:

      DYS Robinson
      393 12
      390 24
      19 14
      391 11
      385a 11
      385b 15
      426 12
      388 12
      439 12
      389-1 13
      392 13
      389-2 29
      458 17
      459a 9
      459b 9
      455 11
      454 11
      447 24
      437 16
      448 19
      449 29
      464a 15
      464b 15
      464c 17
      464d 17
      460 10
      GATA H4 11
      YCA Iia 19
      YCA Iib 23
      456 15
      607 17
      576 19
      570 18
      CDYa 36
      CDYb 40
      442 13
      438 12
      531 11
      578 9
      395S1a 15
      395S1b 16
      590 8
      537 11
      641 10
      472 8
      406S1 10
      511 11
      425 12
      413a 23
      413b 23
      557 17
      594 10
      436 12
      490 12
      534 14
      450 8
      444 12
      481 22
      520 20
      446 13
      617 12
      568 11
      487 13
      572 12
      640 11
      492 12
      565 12

      Timothy Peterman

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      • #4
        Another thought. I have a list of R1b modal values. I can't recall the source. The list is several years old. I suspect that back in the old days when we were nothing more than R1b1c, these values were established by a pool that was probably comprised to a large part by results that we now would consider to be L21+ or at least P312+.

        Do anyone know modal values for: L23+, L23* (xL51), L51+, L51*, L11+, L11*, P312+, P312*, U106+, U152+, & L21+?

        Each of these would probably make a comparison like this somewhat more meaningful.

        Timothy Peterman

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