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Resolving J1 Haplogroup with family name Hatfield

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Hello,

    My guess would be Roman mercenaries. Especially Syrian Bowmen in Roman service and other Ethnic groups from the Middle East.

    Syrian Bowmen in Britain
    http://www.romanarmy.net/hamians.htm

    Also other Middle Eastern mercenaries were present in Britain, see Arbeia "fort of the Arab troops"a Roman fort in South Shields, Tyne & Wear, England.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeia

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  • Jim Honeychuck
    replied
    Originally posted by Chap View Post
    Hello again everyone.

    I just received the results of my Deep Clade test, and it confirms that I am of Haplogroup J1e [P58+].

    That's interesting for me, but can anyone please offer some assistance as to how that can help me resolve a surname that seems to indicate an ancestry in England?

    I liked the idea previously suggested that my ancestor may have accompanied the Roman garrisons into Britannia, but does that theory still hold water with the confirmation of J1e?

    Thanks as always.
    Sure. If your known ancestry is English and you're J1*, your ancestors could have come with the Romans, or maybe during the Neolithic, nobody knows yet. Keep looking in all the databases for good strong matches.

    Regards,
    Jim

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  • Chap
    replied
    Hello again everyone.

    I just received the results of my Deep Clade test, and it confirms that I am of Haplogroup J1e [P58+].

    That's interesting for me, but can anyone please offer some assistance as to how that can help me resolve a surname that seems to indicate an ancestry in England?

    I liked the idea previously suggested that my ancestor may have accompanied the Roman garrisons into Britannia, but does that theory still hold water with the confirmation of J1e?

    Thanks as always.

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Thanks to Andrew Lancaster of Double-Helix (E-M35) for this very interesting link comparing J1 with other haplogroups found around the Mediterranean and Middle East. IMO, this is evidence for a neolithic expansion in Europe of J2, but later historical events for J1.

    http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index....al._%282009%29
    Last edited by vinnie; 19 January 2010, 12:01 PM.

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  • vinnie
    replied
    Originally posted by Chap View Post
    Thanks Vinnie, but this is where I begin to wonder if you're still speaking English. I'm still trying to make sense of all the letters and numbers used in this nomenclature. How does L222.2 fit into the DYS graph I have? Is it a DYS number or an allele? What do the plus and minus represent? Will this all make more sense to me when I receive the results of the Deep Clade test?

    My degree is in electronics, not biology. Is there a link to an easy to comprehend explanation of the terminology?

    Thanks again for your knowledge and generosity.
    Chap,

    SNPs determine haplogroups (for example, J1 and J2) and subclades within haplogroups (for example, J1b and J1e), and these are different from DYS markers. IMO, it's not much good to compare haplotypes unless you know both your and the other person's haplogroup and subclade because people with similar sets of DYS markers can belong to different subclades and sometimes even to different haplogroups. (This is up to a certain point and depending on the haplogroup; the more markers there are to compare, and the more similarity between the haplotypes, the less likely they will belong to different haplogroups/subclades). If you check out the J1 results in the J Project, you'll see that a number of the haplotypes are very similar, but belong to different subclades. This means that although two haplotypes may be similar, if they belong to different subclades, they're not as closely related as persons with differing haplotypes who are within the same subclade. So SNPs take precedence over DYS values. That's why you need to be cautiously optimistic when you find a similar haplotype in databases such as ySearch, as your degree of relationship will be tenuous unless you both know your subclades. However, if you find a very close match, for example a 65/67 match, then you should be related within a genealogic time frame and you should be in the same haplogroup and subclade. For basic answers to a lot of questions, choose "FAQ" at the top of the FTDNA homepage.

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  • vinnie
    replied
    Originally posted by ~Elizabeth~ View Post
    Ok. Does the J project list the haplotypes for anyone to view, or is it private. I had read (wikipedia) that the Phoenicians are J2. Is L222.2 found only in some J1e or in47 J2 also?
    Elizabeth,

    Here's the link to the results: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    L222.2 is found only in J1e; it's downstream of L147, which is downstream of P58 (J1e). In other words, someone can only be positive for L147 if he's also positive for P58, and only those who are positive for L147 can be positive for L222.2.

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  • Chap
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    Just to clarify, the Cohanim are NOT the only ones negative for L222.2; the J Project has listed 4 Arab haplotypes, in addition to mine and my closest match, which are also negative.
    Thanks Vinnie, but this is where I begin to wonder if you're still speaking English. I'm still trying to make sense of all the letters and numbers used in this nomenclature. How does L222.2 fit into the DYS graph I have? Is it a DYS number or an allele? What do the plus and minus represent? Will this all make more sense to me when I receive the results of the Deep Clade test?

    My degree is in electronics, not biology. Is there a link to an easy to comprehend explanation of the terminology?

    Thanks again for your knowledge and generosity.

    Leave a comment:


  • ~Elizabeth~
    replied
    Ok. Does the J project list the haplotypes for anyone to view, or is it private. I had read (wikipedia) that the Phoenicians are J2. Is L222.2 found only in some J1e or in J2 also?

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Just to clarify, the Cohanim are NOT the only ones negative for L222.2; the J Project has listed 4 Arab haplotypes, in addition to mine and my closest match, which are also negative.
    Last edited by vinnie; 17 January 2010, 09:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ~Elizabeth~
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    Chap,

    This is a "P.S." to my last post. It seems that recently discovered SNPs L147 and L222.2 will provide greater resolution for J1e; the J Project has started coding the subgroups into those who are positive and negative for these two SNPs. Notably, the Cohanim are positive for L147 but negative for L222.2. In contrast, so far, many of the Arab haplotypes are positive for both. (There is another newly discovered SNP, L65, which looks like it will help distinguish among those positive for L222.2.) Likewise, in the J1e (L147) project, many of the Arab haplotypes are also positive for L222.2, but as of now, there's no subgrouping for those who are negative for this SNP.
    Wow! That's amazing.

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  • Chap
    replied
    Thanks guys. I anxiously await the results of the Deep Clade.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Honeychuck
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    Chap,

    This is a "P.S." to my last post. It seems that recently discovered SNPs L147 and L222.2 will provide greater resolution for J1e; the J Project has started coding the subgroups into those who are positive and negative for these two SNPs. Notably, the Cohanim are positive for L147 but negative for L222.2. In contrast, so far, many of the Arab haplotypes are positive for both. (There is another newly discovered SNP, L65, which looks like it will help distinguish among those positive for L222.2.) Likewise, in the J1e (L147) project, many of the Arab haplotypes are also positive for L222.2, but as of now, there's no subgrouping for those who are negative for this SNP.
    I endorse Vinnie's recommendation. SNP deep clade testing is where the state of the art understanding of J1e is to be found (although I myself am not trying to follow it).

    Regards,
    Jim
    J1*

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Chap,

    This is a "P.S." to my last post. It seems that recently discovered SNPs L147 and L222.2 will provide greater resolution for J1e; the J Project has started coding the subgroups into those who are positive and negative for these two SNPs. Notably, the Cohanim are positive for L147 but negative for L222.2. In contrast, so far, many of the Arab haplotypes are positive for both. (There is another newly discovered SNP, L65, which looks like it will help distinguish among those positive for L222.2.) Likewise, in the J1e (L147) project, many of the Arab haplotypes are also positive for L222.2, but as of now, there's no subgrouping for those who are negative for this SNP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Honeychuck
    replied
    Originally posted by Chap View Post
    Jim/Vinnie/Elizabeth, et.al.,

    Can any of you point me to a chart or graph that lists the various geographic or ethnic traits associated with individual DYS numbers? Like what you previously suggested about the DYS388 numbers with 15 & 16 being more predominantly one ethnicity and 17 & 18 being another? If I can create a map based on each DYS or allele, it may help to confirm or disprove some of the theories I've been working on.

    And thanks for the tip about the Roman garrisons in Britannia. I've been researching them non-stop, and I think there could be some real meat on my ancestral bones there.

    Thanks again.
    Since your haplotype does not point to any specific ethnic group in www.yhrd.org, I suggest you browse all the DNA projects and databases so see if you can come up with any close matches.

    Regards,
    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Originally posted by Chap View Post
    Jim/Vinnie/Elizabeth, et.al.,

    Can any of you point me to a chart or graph that lists the various geographic or ethnic traits associated with individual DYS numbers? Like what you previously suggested about the DYS388 numbers with 15 & 16 being more predominantly one ethnicity and 17 & 18 being another? If I can create a map based on each DYS or allele, it may help to confirm or disprove some of the theories I've been working on.

    And thanks for the tip about the Roman garrisons in Britannia. I've been researching them non-stop, and I think there could be some real meat on my ancestral bones there.

    Thanks again.
    Chap,

    Jim knows much more than I do about DYS388 values below 15, but other than the general observations about 15 and higher that I've related to you, there is no one-to-one correspondence that I know of that exists between the values and specific ethnicities. As he already mentioned, J1 is mostly about SNPs at this point. So while I understand your excitement, I suggest waiting for your SNP results to point you in the right direction.

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