Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Resolving J1 Haplogroup with family name Hatfield

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Resolving J1 Haplogroup with family name Hatfield

    Greetings,

    My last name is Hatfield and my ancestry is confirmed by DNA back seven generations. We are from Haplogroup J1.

    However, our branch of Hatfields does not match the DNA of any of the five main families of Hatfields in America.

    Since the J1 DNA is rooted in the Middle East, can anyone offer a hypothesis as to how our ancestor may have wound up in one of the storied families of American lore?

    Our earliest known ancestor first appears in the 1830 census of Indiana. Beyond that, we have run out of ideas of where he could have come from, since there is no connection with the other known branches of Hatfields.

    Does anyone else share the J1 Haplotype with a American or Anglicized family name?

    Thanks in advance for any help.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Chap View Post
    Greetings,

    My last name is Hatfield and my ancestry is confirmed by DNA back seven generations. We are from Haplogroup J1.

    However, our branch of Hatfields does not match the DNA of any of the five main families of Hatfields in America.

    Since the J1 DNA is rooted in the Middle East, can anyone offer a hypothesis as to how our ancestor may have wound up in one of the storied families of American lore?

    Our earliest known ancestor first appears in the 1830 census of Indiana. Beyond that, we have run out of ideas of where he could have come from, since there is no connection with the other known branches of Hatfields.

    Does anyone else share the J1 Haplotype with a American or Anglicized family name?

    Thanks in advance for any help.
    Welcome Chap.

    I can't cite any sources for what I'm about to say, other than my own observations.

    J1 in the British Isles seems to break into two categories, J1 with DYS388=13 or 14, and J1 with DYS388=15 or 16. The former appears to have arrived in the British Isles in medieval times, whereas the latter is probably the result of one of two waves of Neolithic expansion, namely the one by way of the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast.

    You have probably been puzzled by the fact that on Ysearch, your case 6WCUW is not a close match to any other cases, except three or four mockups someone put on Ysearch for some reason. This would imply that your line left the Middle East a long time ago, maybe 7,000 years or more. You will find that movement described using the more prominent Y-DNA type J2.

    You might try www.YHRD.org, but pay attention only to exact matches to cases with a lot of markers.

    Another point, your surname is derived from a location, and is not unique in England. http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/Surnames.aspx Thus you would expect that men of different lineages would have the same surname, even in the same place of origin.

    Hope this helps.
    Jim
    J1 with DYS388=13
    American permanently resident in the UK
    Last edited by Jim Honeychuck; 10 January 2010, 04:03 AM. Reason: Added England surname link

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Jim.

      I have read numerous posts by you I appreciate your observations.

      Can you refer me to a source for learning more about what you call the DYS numbers? I see many experienced posters referring to them and I want to know how they clarify the broader DNA picture.

      Your point about my surname being associated with a place is well taken, but the window for my ancestor to have claimed that surname is quite narrow. Surnames were not common or required until the census of William the Conquerer, late in the 11th century, and all the Jews were expelled from England two centuries later, under Edward I in 1290.

      I'm making the assumption that with the J1 Haplotype, my ancestors were likely Jewish, so if they were there in England at the assigning of place names, they must have been among those that converted to Christianity to keep from being expelled a few generations later. Either way, those details should make it easier to narrow my focus by using DNA.

      Yes, I am puzzled as to why my case matches no others on Ysearch. Another contributor has informed me that I share his Cohen Haplotype. Can you shed any light on what that means, and how can I verify what he theorizes?

      Thanks again for your input.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Chap,

        I don't know if you've read any of my other posts, but my closest match (gd 20 on 67 markers) is also an Anglo-American. Using the Mcgee Utility http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html (I used FTDNA standards, 30yrs/gen, 95% confidence), our TMRCA comes out to about 300-500 A.D. This is when my grandfather's Italian village is believed to have started as people fled the collapse of Rome; likewise, the Jewish diaspora into Germany and Eastern Europe began in ernest after this time. While a neolithic migration could have been the vehicle through which your ancient ancestor arrived in Britain, it is also entirely possible that he was part of the Jewish trek northward, or even a Middle Eastern slave as part of the Roman invasion of Britain. (An excellent paper arguing for the presence of E-M35/v13 in Britain as a result of the Roman legions was recently published, demonstrating that there can be known historical events responsible for the genetic diversity of Britain.) IMO, there just isn't enough well documented literature on J1, based on large amounts of data, to come to any firm conclusions as to how J1 ended up in Britain. If I were you, I'd have the complete round of SNP testing done to make sure you know exactly where you fit in the J1 tree, and not be too concerned about some of your unusual marker values at this point. I've got a couple of uncommon values that used to be considered rare until more people tested and posted results.

        Vinnie

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chap View Post
          Thank you Jim.

          I have read numerous posts by you I appreciate your observations.

          Can you refer me to a source for learning more about what you call the DYS numbers? I see many experienced posters referring to them and I want to know how they clarify the broader DNA picture.

          Your point about my surname being associated with a place is well taken, but the window for my ancestor to have claimed that surname is quite narrow. Surnames were not common or required until the census of William the Conquerer, late in the 11th century, and all the Jews were expelled from England two centuries later, under Edward I in 1290.

          I'm making the assumption that with the J1 Haplotype, my ancestors were likely Jewish, so if they were there in England at the assigning of place names, they must have been among those that converted to Christianity to keep from being expelled a few generations later. Either way, those details should make it easier to narrow my focus by using DNA.

          Yes, I am puzzled as to why my case matches no others on Ysearch. Another contributor has informed me that I share his Cohen Haplotype. Can you shed any light on what that means, and how can I verify what he theorizes?

          Thanks again for your input.
          Chap,

          With J1, the DYS number have proven less useful than SNPs, or single nucleotide polymorphisms. My type, J1 with DYS388=13, has no defining SNP, so it is simply J1*, and DYS388 is enough to separate out almost all the related cases. It also has a distinctive distribution pattern, which I have Google Mapped at http://tinyurl.com/nsww44

          As you see on the FTDNA J Project, the project administrator has made the educated guess that your case is part of "J1e big cluster, L136+, P58+, should be L147+". If possible, you should try to find DYS matches which are J1e. If you find another J1e who is an exact match and has tested a lot of markers (like 67), you will know you have found a distant cousin. (R1b readers ignore that; your type is so common you may have many exact but unimportant matches.)

          I think your assumption that because your type is J1 your ancestors were likely Jewish is incorrect, for the simple reason that you have no Jewish matches. Now, smug people will trot out that old saw, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." But in your case I think it is. It is an understatement to say that European Jews have been well sampled genetically. This whole genetic genealogy field is probably a spin-off from medical interest among the Ashkenazim. So is it possible that your line is a relic of a previously undetected Jewish line? I don't think so. But keep looking. Many of the FTDNA Eastern European projects are mostly Jewish cases, so be sure to look through them.

          As for the Cohen Modal Haplotype, a lot of ink has been spilled on that subject, and someone has recently produced a definitive paper about it (or I should say the different versions of it), but I'm not following that. There are more knowledgeable people who can advise you on the CMH.

          Regards,
          Jim

          Comment


          • #6
            Chap,

            Over 84,000 cases at www.yhrd.org, and not a single match to you. Closest I could find before I got timed out was 11 for 12 with a Croatian from eastern Croatia.

            I see you are on SMGF. Your closest matches there are a Palestinian, a Jordanian, and some line from "Ghaen" Iran with no hint of the ethnicity. You are arguably related to those cases within about 1,000 years. That's evidence against my Neolithic theory. Any thoughts on that?

            Regards,
            Jim

            Comment


            • #7
              Jim and Vinnie,

              Thanks so much for responding. I am learning at a logarithmic rate and I have translated many of the acronyms you use, but I can't find SMGF, and if I'm on it, I don't know how I got there.

              Jim, I don't have any substantive thoughts on whether or not my ancestor was part of a neolithic migration or a much more recent event. I am so confused now I can hardly form a cohesive thought. I have spent several days buried in research of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish lines because I had myself convinced that I must descended from one of them, but which one?

              Now, I'm back to not being certain of anything prior to when my paper trail begins in 1830. A few months ago, we assumed our ancestor was from England because we thought we were part of one of the larger branches of Hatfields in America, but there is no proof of that at all now. I have located six different variations of the name Hatfield in Poland, Germany, and The Netherlands. We could be descended from any one of them...or not.

              Vinnie, I like your idea of the Roman Legions carrying J1 DNA into Britannia. Only a few days ago I had myself convinced that my ancestor either was scattered in the Diaspora and was Ashkenazi from Germany or Poland, or was expelled from Spain during the Inquisition and became Sephardic or converted to Christianity in Portugal. None of my ideas are as heroic as being descended from Romans, but all are far more fiction than fact now.

              I prefer to concentrate on what my DNA numbers actually prove. Will it help to post them here? My DYS388 number equals 16 if that helps, and my certificate lists Haplogroup J1 (M267). Is there a graph either of you can provide me a link to that would help explain what each of the DYS numbers proves about my ancestor? I just ordered the Deep Clade test to further develop my Haplogroup numbers, but I think I won't order any more markers until I have a direction.

              Thanks again for the time you spent explaining things to me. I am grateful.

              Tim Hatfield
              Last edited by Chap; 11 January 2010, 05:23 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Smgf

                www.smgf.org
                Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation
                Last edited by ~Elizabeth~; 11 January 2010, 05:41 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Chap,

                  While a few of your individual marker values are less common than most of the people in the J project, it's the combination on the first twelve that's setting you apart, but unusual combos are not unheard of. It's great that you've ordered the SNP testing, and when there's a marker upgrade sale, consider going to 67. It may be awhile before you find anyone close to you, but chances are in time you will. As for DYS 388, it's true (with the data available up to this point) that 15 & 16 are more common among modern Jews, and 17 and higher more common among modern Arabs, but you can't tell someone's ancestry but that marker alone. Also, J1 most probably existed long before anyone was known as a Jew or an Arab, so some J1s are not descended from anyone who ever identified with either group. Likewise, religious conversion is an uncomfortable subject for some people, but it shouldn't be ignored as a potential source of J1 among modern non-Jewish men. As for the CMH, now that a substantial paper has been published on the 12 marker modal haplotype, that will be the standard until either a SNP is found that definitively sets modern J1e Cohens apart, or a longer modal haplotype with better resolution is established.
                  Last edited by vinnie; 11 January 2010, 06:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    P.S.

                    We'll never know how many Jewish haplotypes were lost throughout the centuries from atrocities like the pogroms and the Holocaust, not to mention other tragedies like the Black Death. It's entirely possible that those of us who do not identify as Jews today may never find our "missing links" to the Jewish community, if indeed they ever existed for us.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I looked at the wikipedia page for the Hatfield-McCoy feud. It says the Hatfields are E1b1b (formerly E3b). That originated in East Africa.
                      I googled McCoy and a McCoy is listed as J1. Website is 'British' J1 haplogroup members at YSearch.org
                      http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...181&topic=4267
                      Last edited by ~Elizabeth~; 11 January 2010, 07:21 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ~Elizabeth~ View Post
                        www.smgf.org
                        Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation
                        Thank you Elizabeth. Still, if my data are there, I don't know how they got there. I'll try and sort through it soon. Thanks again.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ~Elizabeth~ View Post
                          I looked at the wikipedia page for the Hatfield-McCoy feud. It says the Hatfields are E1b1b (formerly E3b). That originated in East Africa.
                          I googled McCoy and a McCoy is listed as J1. Website is 'British' J1 haplogroup members at YSearch.org
                          http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...181&topic=4267
                          Thank you Elizabeth. That's interesting, but not news to me. My Hatfields were farming in Indiana long before the Hatfield-McCoy feud. Still, it's interesting about a McCoy being a J1. Guess they're as confused as I am.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                            Chap,

                            While a few of your individual marker values are less common than most of the people in the J project, it's the combination on the first twelve that's setting you apart, but unusual combos are not unheard of. It's great that you've ordered the SNP testing, and when there's a marker upgrade sale, consider going to 67. It may be awhile before you find anyone close to you, but chances are in time you will. As for DYS 388, it's true (with the data available up to this point) that 15 & 16 are more common among modern Jews, and 17 and higher more common among modern Arabs, but you can't tell someone's ancestry but that marker alone. Also, J1 most probably existed long before anyone was known as a Jew or an Arab, so some J1s are not descended from anyone who ever identified with either group. Likewise, religious conversion is an uncomfortable subject for some people, but it shouldn't be ignored as a potential source of J1 among modern non-Jewish men. As for the CMH, now that a substantial paper has been published on the 12 marker modal haplotype, that will be the standard until either a SNP is found that definitively sets modern J1e Cohens apart, or a longer modal haplotype with better resolution is established.
                            Thank you Vinnie. You're obviously well versed on this topic and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

                            One thing I'm (more) confused about though, is that you say DYS388=15 & 16 represent more modern Jews, but Jim stated that it "is probably the result of one of two waves of Neolithic expansion, namely the one by way of the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast", so there is obviously still some room for interpretation of these data.

                            If Jim's position is accurate, that would validate your theory of my ancestor being in England before the adoption of place surnames, possibly even as a Roman slave, as you theorize. That is something I would never have even considered, but it is worthy of some thought.

                            If there are more general assumptions that can be drawn from my DYS numbers, please don't hesitate to share them with me.

                            Thanks again.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Chap View Post
                              Thank you Elizabeth. Still, if my data are there, I don't know how they got there. I'll try and sort through it soon. Thanks again.
                              Some other researcher. This is the line:
                              Daniel H. HATFIELD
                              b. abt 1800 New Jersey, USA

                              Samuel M. HATFIELD
                              b. 8 May 1832 Schuyler County, Illinois, USA

                              Samuel Henry HATFIELD
                              b. 8 Apr 1866 Winslow, Pike, Indiana, USA

                              John Samuel HATFIELD
                              b. 21 Feb 1892 Owensville, Gibson, Indiana, USA

                              Is that your line too?

                              Regards,
                              Jim

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X