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Scots Modal Haplotype and Origins, L21+

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  • Scots Modal Haplotype and Origins, L21+

    In regards to the Scots Modal Haplotype L21+, I was given some interesting information regarding the possible origins of this particular cluster. I believe I have covered this subject many times and many may believe I am beating a dead horse . The site refers to the possibility that the Scots Modal is from a Brythonic migration north into Scotland instead of being derived from the Dalriada Scots. I have noticed that the Scots Modal was also called the Colla Uais Modal and the Dalriada Modal, as well as the Pictish Modal. This leads me to believe that we are uncertain as to the possible origins of this particular modal. The distribution is varied throughout Scotland, including the highlands and islands, and according to some individuals is found in Argyll in large numbers.
    Here is the article: http://www.bobhay.net/_downloads/_ge...f%20Europe.pdf

    "There is one very speculative proposition, however, which seems worth looking at briefly and remembering for the future. Two of the most expert of the men who frequent the RootsWeb-DNA list, Robert Livingston and John McEwan, have been comparing their researches into the variously-named Scots modal haplotype13 ibid, p.210.14which another researcher, Kevin Campbell 14, earlier this year identified as "Pict". Livingston and McEwan, for what it is worth, suggest that the "Scots Modal" people actually passed through England on their way to the north. If that is true, then the Picts were the aboriginal inhabitants of England!" www.bobhay.net

    I would love to here your opinions!
    Take Care
    Eunson
    Last edited by Magnus_Eunson; 17 December 2009, 01:45 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Magnus_Eunson View Post
    In regards to the Scots Modal Haplotype L21+, I was given some interesting information regarding the possible origins of this particular cluster. I believe I have covered this subject many times and many may believe I am beating a dead horse . The site refers to the possibility that the Scots Modal is from a Brythonic migration north into Scotland instead of being derived from the Dalriada Scots. I have noticed that the Scots Modal was also called the Colla Uais Modal and the Dalriada Modal, as well as the Pictish Modal. This leads me to believe that we are uncertain as to the possible origins of this particular modal. The distribution is varied throughout Scotland, including the highlands and islands, and according to some individuals is found in Argyll in large numbers.
    Here is the article: http://www.bobhay.net/_downloads/_ge...f%20Europe.pdf

    "There is one very speculative proposition, however, which seems worth looking at briefly and remembering for the future. Two of the most expert of the men who frequent the RootsWeb-DNA list, Robert Livingston and John McEwan, have been comparing their researches into the variously-named Scots modal haplotype13 ibid, p.210.14which another researcher, Kevin Campbell 14, earlier this year identified as "Pict". Livingston and McEwan, for what it is worth, suggest that the "Scots Modal" people actually passed through England on their way to the north. If that is true, then the Picts were the aboriginal inhabitants of England!" www.bobhay.net

    I would love to here your opinions!
    Take Care
    Eunson
    The timescale-snapshot of that specific modal's presence is all-important. "England" is linguistically, politically and genetically a meaningless term before say 700 AD, and you can assume that before that any land-travellng cluster would have to pass from south to north over the lands now called "British&Scottish"at any time after the Doggerland engulfment which was quite soon after LGM.

    "Brythonic-Gaelic" is a linguistic split term placed in time after the Celtic-Germanic language split of around 1500 BCE (wild guess) so in Britain no sooner than that. At the time of Roman annexation, the Dalriada people were probably Brythonic speakers, which says nothing about their genes.

    These Tribes terminologies are not often coherent with the specific paleolinguistic terms as originally derived from other disciplines than genetics or genomology, which creates statements that may invite misunderstanding or even derision.
    It is safest to cite the actual mode by a non-colored term if the alphamumeric one is insufficiently memorable!

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    • #3
      The Scots modal is after all represented predominantly by Scottish families and a very few English and Norse. These are merely clusters that share common alleles in a specific region. Im not saying that the Scots Modal is Pictish, Brythonic, Dalriada, or even Mongolian. The main idea here is migration and what path into Scotland the founder took!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Another important question is how the authors of this article came to the conclusion of a south north migration into Scotland for this particular modal, instead of a migration from Ireland? It was my mistake writing origins instead of migrations........
        Eunson
        Last edited by Magnus_Eunson; 18 December 2009, 03:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Magnus_Eunson View Post
          Another important question is how the authors of this article came to the conclusion of a south north migration into Scotland for this particular modal, instead of a migration from Ireland? It was my mistake writing origins instead of migrations........
          Eunson
          We say "origins" and really mean selected past stepping-stones. That is why any 'cluster of interest' needs a DNA mutation-based estimate of age or duration, so as then to place it within known historical or archeological date-markers, and hence the demotaxic probabilities.

          That beautiful article (thanks for the link) is a treasure indeed, but does not make a clear evidentiary case for a particular south-north migration of the cluster via central Britain, although that is probable. Unless they walked across Doggerland from Frisia? After getting there first from ?....

          If, as with the Dalriada folk, the move was from Ireland, there would have to be a south-north move into Ireland first of all, from the Continent, by-passing Britain. South-north is the reasonable expectation of all migrations in the early post LGM epoch.

          As to truly naming the "aboriginals of England" , take a Google at Paviland Man; mammoth-hunting, proto-H MtDNA, 7,000 yrs pre-LGM! We call the site "Wales" now, but his tribe must have been all around the South....

          Comment


          • #6
            Hopefully with further testing we can determine an SNP for this particular modal. We can then "possibly" obtain an appropriate date for the mutation. The article does seem outdated and gives the reader some fantastic idea's about the direction from hence the founder came. As you have stated, they just as easily could of sailed from Europe directly to Scotland.
            Thank you for your information!
            Take Care
            Eunson

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