New SNP 226 for L21+ and M222- haplogroup

[nelsonl]

My father's dna is r1b1b2a1b5 which is L21+. Our earliest known ancestors were from County Clare, Ire. but our closest dna matches come from the southern irish modal. He has many matches within difference of 10 in the O'Donohue of the Glenns project. The closest being at a difference of 4 which makes the closest generation at 375- 500 years ago. I just received a notice from ftdna that because of our L21+ and M222- status that we should test for the above mentioned new snp. I am wondering what kind of information can come from this. There are also a bunch more snp's also available for testing in that grouping. What would be the advantage of doing any of these tests? Hope someone can fill me in. Lynn Nelson

[Mag Uidhir 6]

Lynn,

Welcome to the fray!

There probably is no definitive answer to what will M226 tell us.......at least not yet.

Like all statistics, it takes time and quantity and research to define a subclade. Being a newbie myself, I can only say that each piece of the puzzle gets us closer to knowing where the differences lie and where the similarities lie. Different groupings will eventually help us all.

Good luck in the adventure!

[gtc]

What would be the advantage of doing any of these tests?

When it comes to further SNP testing I guess it depends, apart from your budget, on how interested you are in deep ancestry and in pushing the boundaries of the science. R1b is such a huge haplogroup that each new SNP discovery offers hope of defining it better at the individual level.

I am L48+ and generally take each new advanced order test that is applicable to me because I am really interested in helping to peel new layers off the genetic onion, so to speak.

Lately L48+ seems to have stalled somewhat while L21+ appears to be steaming ahead.

[Stevo]

Thus far, L226 seems to characterize those with the Irish Type III haplotype:

http://www.irishtype3dna.org/

If you look at the Y-DNA Results page of the brand new R-L226 Project, you can see that the Irish Type III haplotype is pretty easy to spot:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

[gtc]

Thus far, L226 seems to characterize those with the Irish Type III haplotype:

This "modal" begs the question: What exactly do we mean by Irish?

My male forebears are traceable to Ireland where they existed for some 650 years, but the surname probably originates in Normandy, and before that who knows?

Old families on the west coast of Ireland show DNA relationship to Spanish/Iberian people.

So, what is the origin of the so-called modal type III?

[rivergirl]

This "modal" begs the question: What exactly do we mean by Irish?

So, what is the origin of the so-called modal type III?

Check out the website;
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/

[gtc]

Check out the website;
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/

The information there doesn't take me beyond what we call "Irish".

What I want to know is are the roots of "Type III" supposedly Pictish, Celtic, Viking, Norman, etc.

[nelsonl]

My L226 Dilemma

Thanks to all who have commented. My dilemma is that our earliest ancestor was Michael Griffy of Shalndrum, Co. clare. In Irish history the Griffy's were a branch of the Dalgais. But our dna is a more perfect match for the southern irish or the O'Donohue of the Glens. There are very few in the Griffin project that are even somewhat close to our dna. We were not qualified to join the irish type 3 project. Maybe we were notified about this test so they can say that not all L21+ individuals are dalcassian. That is I am assuming that our dna would be negative for L226. Testing might help in deciding whether L226 + is a solely dalcassian marker. I would like to know what the other new markers are supposed to delineate. I wouldn't mind doing the L226 for clarification but would their be a chance that any of the other new markers under L21+ could advance our paticular knowledge of ancestry? Lynn

[satyricon]

Can someone explain a little to me the importance of the SNP divergence ???

I mean does, L226 imply a one letter difference ?

Is the assumption that that represents a single man ?

How do we know two male cousins didn't have the same mutation (even many years apart) ?

Thanks

[Stevo]

This "modal" begs the question: What exactly do we mean by Irish?

My male forebears are traceable to Ireland where they existed for some 650 years, but the surname probably originates in Normandy, and before that who knows?

I didn't name the thing. I suppose it is called "Irish" because it is commonly found among men with ancestry in the country called by that name.

The fact that you and many other (most, actually) men of Irish descent are not Irish Type III doesn't make you all "not-Irish". It just means you aren't "Irish Type III", which refers to a specific haplotype.

Old families on the west coast of Ireland show DNA relationship to Spanish/Iberian people.

Ooh! I think that is pretty old (and faulty) info from back when we (including the U106+ guys) were all told we were "Cro-Magnons" out of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge".

How are they Iberian? Lots of M153+ and SRY2627+ among them?

L21+, which is common in Ireland, thus far is pretty rare in Iberia.

So, what is the origin of the so-called modal type III?

Dennis Wright says Irish Type III represents the "Dal Casse" (pardon the spelling if I'm wrong) sept. I don't know if that is correct, but he knows much about it than I do.

Why "so-called"?

[gtc]

Ooh! I think that is pretty old (and faulty) info from back when we (including the U106+ guys) were all told we were "Cro-Magnons" out of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge".

How are they Iberian? Lots of M153+ and SRY2627+ among them?

It's covered in the 2008 RTE TV series "Blood of the Irish" where DNA is taken from old west coast family men and men from coastal Spain and they are the same haplogroup. They don't go into SNP detail unfortunately.

The program spends quite a bit of time looking at why established families in county Mayo, with their black hair and brown eyes, look decidedly different from your average "Paddy" and follow up on various theories about Spanish migration.

The fact that you and many other (most, actually) men of Irish descent are not Irish Type III doesn't make you all "not-Irish". It just means you aren't "Irish Type III", which refers to a specific haplotype.

I don't consider myself Irish in the long view, merely a visitor for some centuries from somewhere else; probably Normandy if the surname research is on the mark. There's much debate about what is "native" Irish, and I was wondering if the so-called "type III" was an attempt to define that. "So-called" because it's not an officially recognized term.

[Stevo]

It's covered in the 2008 RTE TV series "Blood of the Irish" where DNA is taken from old west coast family men and men from coastal Spain and they are the same haplogroup. They don't go into SNP detail unfortunately.

The program spends quite a bit of time looking at why established families in county Mayo, with their black hair and brown eyes, look decidedly different from your average "Paddy" and follow up on various theories about Spanish migration.

That series was based on very old info. It was discussed awhile back on the Rootsweb list. Things like that have been said about the British Isles in general and were based on the old notion that R1b came out of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge".

I don't consider myself Irish in the long view, merely a visitor for some centuries from somewhere else; probably Normandy if the surname research is on the mark. There's much debate about what is "native" Irish, and I was wondering if the so-called "type III" was an attempt to define that. "So-called" because it's not an officially recognized term.

I suspect "native Irish" means different things to different people. But I don't think that is what anyone has in mind with Irish Type III. No kind of L21 is old enough to have been in Ireland before the Bronze Age (if Nordtvedt, Klyosov, Vizachero and others are right in their estimates), so if by "native" one means, "in place since soon after the last Ice Age", then Irish Type III definitely misses the hide-covered boat.

I think most of the names for the bewildering array of modal haplotypes in Ysearch and elsewhere are not officially recognized by whatever officials are responsible for extending such recognition. I myself am wary of most of them and of attaching too specifically geographic names to them before we are sure they are limited to that geographic area.

[gtc]

That series was based on very old info. It was discussed awhile back on the Rootsweb list. Things like that have been said about the British Isles in general and were based on the old notion that R1b came out of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge".

I don't know about "old info"; the haplo tests on Irish and Spanish families were carried out during the making of the program. Again, no SNPs were named. The low tech level of the series would have precluded such discussion.

I think the concern about the Iberian refuge is that the program did not make mention of any other refuges and the casual viewer would come away with the idea that there was only the one in Iberia.

It could also be said that science was being used to fit the theory, rather than the other way around, although historically I gather there is evidence of Iberian trade routes to western Ireland so it's natural to expect some Spanish DNA among the older families there.

I think most of the names for the bewildering array of modal haplotypes in Ysearch and elsewhere are not officially recognized by whatever officials are responsible for extending such recognition. I myself am wary of most of them and of attaching too specifically geographic names to them before we are sure they are limited to that geographic area.

Yes, it seems to me that in the early days of the SNP discovery revolution there was a tendency to find "modals" for this or that region or origin. As you say, Ysearch abounds with them these days.

[T E Peterman]

I think that if there is any validity to the Milesian tradition, one could find recent links (ie, less than 2500 years old) between Iberian & some Irish haplogroups. My Coffey family is R P312+ (but negative on everything downstream) & the Coffey surname is supposedly descended from the Milesians.

Of all of the surnames I have had tested, the Coffeys are closest to the Ellis family of Bala, North Wales (the Welsh have no authentic surnames, but they were surnamed Ellis after coming to Pennsylvania in the 1690s) & the Ellis line is also P312+ (but negative on everything downstream). Many Welsh families were also descended from Roman soldiers, many of whom came from the Celtic parts of the empire, including, notably, Iberia.

I can't say for certain that the similarity between Coffey & Ellis originated with Iberian roots, but I think that it is plausible.

Timothy Peterman

[PDHOTLEN]

early Virginia

I've seen both Ellis and Welsh origins of persons in an early tree I've been trying to link to mine. In one case (a Powell), they had been in England quite a while before going to Virginia in the 1600's.