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  • Eve's Mother

    If we go back to Eve with the seven daughter's, who was Eve's mother? What about her? People ask me this question all the time and I don't quite know how to answer them. Also, what does it mean when you say T or T2? What does the 2 mean? Or, E3 or E3b? What does the b mean? Can you explain a mutation as simple as possible? I am very slowly learning about DNA but have a long way to go! Thanks, Nan

  • #2
    Originally posted by NANCY JONES
    If we go back to Eve with the seven daughter's, who was Eve's mother? What about her? People ask me this question all the time and I don't quite know how to answer them. Also, what does it mean when you say T or T2? What does the 2 mean? Or, E3 or E3b? What does the b mean? Can you explain a mutation as simple as possible? I am very slowly learning about DNA but have a long way to go! Thanks, Nan
    THE 2 IS A DEVIATION i dont know about the eve they wrote about but there is an explaintion in terms i know better then to post here
    you can email me at [email protected]

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    • #3
      Originally posted by NANCY JONES
      If we go back to Eve with the seven daughter's, who was Eve's mother? What about her? People ask me this question all the time and I don't quite know how to answer them. Also, what does it mean when you say T or T2? What does the 2 mean? Or, E3 or E3b? What does the b mean? Can you explain a mutation as simple as possible? I am very slowly learning about DNA but have a long way to go! Thanks, Nan
      As you know, Eve is not the same "Eve" referred to in Genesis. Eve is the most recent common ancestor of all humans along the maternal line, and her mother and all her maternal ancestors, are ours as well. As more mtDNA lines die out, Eve will become a different woman. When our "Eve" was alive, there were other mitochondrial lines that have gradually died out, and by chance this woman's has not. Some woman living today will be the maternal ancestor of all humans alive in the future. So "Eve" is only a term that geneticist use to define a woman that existed who is the most recent common ancestor of all humans. We can't know precisely when she lived, but she lived approximately 200,000 years ago.

      As far as T and E3b, these are haplogroups. They suggets groups of people who share common ancestors more recently than those who are in other haplogroups. By the frequencies and diversity of these haplogroups in different areas, scientist can hypothesize where the ancestor who had the mutation that led to a certain haplogroup. Look at the third page of this article to see a pedigree chart to show how these haplogroups are related. This article discusses some other details about these haplogroups as well. This chart shows how the y haplogroups are related. You can do google or yahoo searches on particular haplogroups to learn more about them. Plus, FTDNA offers descriptors for these if you tested positive for them. For example, E3b (a y haplogroup) is believed to be a haplogroup that was involved with the neolithic colonization of Europe after the last ice age. The T (a mtdna haploroup), according to Sykes' Seven Daughters of Eve took refuge in Italy during the last Ice Age. It's a bit more complicated than that as these haplogroups usually do not develop in complete isolation, but often times with physical barriers separting many groups of people (i.e., deserts, glaciers).

      As I've heard recommended on these boards before, check out or buy Spencer Wells' The Journey of Man and Stephen Oppenheimer's The Real Eve. They also have the documentaries of both of these. You can purchase these or the books at Amazaon.com. I have both versions of each. They are very informative and entertaining. I've read both books and still reread passages from them frequently. I also enjoyed watching both films.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NANCY JONES
        If we go back to Eve with the seven daughter's, who was Eve's mother? What about her? People ask me this question all the time and I don't quite know how to answer them. Also, what does it mean when you say T or T2? What does the 2 mean? Or, E3 or E3b? What does the b mean? Can you explain a mutation as simple as possible? I am very slowly learning about DNA but have a long way to go! Thanks, Nan
        Nan, "Eve," or more precisely, "mitochondrial Eve" was the one woman we are all descended from in the direct maternal line. Eve had a mother, of course, but her other daughters have no direct maternal line descendants. Eve had at least two daughters with direct maternal line descendants; if she had only one, that daughter would be "Eve." Actually, the "Eve" who was the "mother" of the Seven Daughters was only "European Eve." Worldwide there are more than 30 "daughters" or clans or haplogroups, so the "Real Eve" was further back in time.

        The numbers and letters after the haplogroup letters, such as T2 or E3b, just show finer divisions of the main groups. Some of the sub-clades have been given separate names, some not. In Y-DNA, R1b is the largest group in Europe, so it is considered a separate haplogroup.

        "Mutation" is any change in the DNA. In mtDNA and Y-DNA "SNPs," one base or nucleotyde is replaced by another, usually A to G, C to T, or vice versa. In Y-DNA "STRs," a string of repeated bases, such as GATAGATAGATA, is increased or decreased because of a copying error. Also, one base or a repeated string can be deleted, or a bit of DNA can be added. So a mutation can be any change in the DNA from one generation to the next.

        Hope this helps.

        Bill

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        • #5
          ok since we are talking about made up things i understand the original question
          if we have a mother of the seven daughters then they have a grandmother
          guess what she has the same mtdna as the daughter and the 7 daughters but this is made up . its nice therory but doesnt fit anything. and doesnt explain how we get these. but since they have found homids older then the lucy who was supposed to be this female that presents a problem since lucy wasnt even related to these new homids which is much closer to us then the later lucy. sometime in the start of the development of the earlier homids it happened to 7 or more women. whatever it was we dont know do we


          your guess is as good as anyones since they didnt write it all down or use a computor

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          • #6
            Lucy is NOT Mitochondrial eve.

            Originally posted by Jim Denning
            . but since they have found homids older then the lucy who was supposed to be this female that presents a problem since lucy wasnt even related to these new homids which is much closer to us then the later lucy. r
            Jim,

            Lucy has nothing to do with Mitochondrial eve.
            "Mitochondrial eve" was a "modern" Homo sapiens sapiens who lived about 120 thousand years ago. "Lucy" was an Australopithecus afarensis who lived over three million years ago. Whether or not A. afarensis was or wasn't our direct ancestor has nothing to do with "mitochondrial eve".

            Nancy,

            Bill Hurst & paitenceofjob have both given you the correct answer.
            There were earlier lineages ("eves" grandmother great grandmother etc & cousins), but all these other lineages now have no living descendants.

            An example of one of these missing lineages is the 40-60 thousand year old Australian "Mungo Man" (Homo sapiens) - his mtDNA is from a branch earlier than "mitochondrial eve", but it is more related to us than Neanderthals. Mungo mans "family" was it seems later replaced by the ancestors of Australian Aborigines who are decendants of eve.

            Angela.

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            • #7
              "An example of one of these missing lineages is the 40-60 thousand year old Australian "Mungo Man" (Homo sapiens) - his mtDNA is from a branch earlier than "mitochondrial eve", but it is more related to us than Neanderthals. Mungo mans "family" was it seems later replaced by the ancestors of Australian Aborigines who are decendants of eve."

              Considering the recent announcement of Homo floresiensis on the nearby island of Flores in Indonesia, this opens the possibility that numerous extinct species & subspecies, some derived from Homo erectus; others derived from Homo neanderthalis, that might have remains less than 50,000 years old that could be tested for mtDNA. Like Mungo Man, none would be descended from mitchondrial Eve.

              Does anyone have any information about the Ebu gogo legend from the island of Flores? This creature was once considered a myth, sort of like the Loch Ness monster. Some cryptozoologists thought that it was real & it sort of belonged in the same class as the Sasquatch or Yeti. The stunning thing about Homo floresiensis is that it matches almost exactly the legendary Ebu gogo, which means that might not be a legend after all. It might also mean that H. floresiensis lived down into historical times...

              Timothy Peterman
              Kansas City, MO

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AngelaCP
                Nancy,

                Bill Hurst & paitenceofjob have both given you the correct answer.
                There were earlier lineages ("eves" grandmother great grandmother etc & cousins), but all these other lineages now have no living descendants.

                An example of one of these missing lineages is the 40-60 thousand year old Australian "Mungo Man" (Homo sapiens) - his mtDNA is from a branch earlier than "mitochondrial eve", but it is more related to us than Neanderthals. Mungo mans "family" was it seems later replaced by the ancestors of Australian Aborigines who are decendants of eve.

                Angela.
                think about what you said "eves grandmother ect lineages now have no living decendents"
                what is eve? and wouldnt she have the same mtdna as her grandmom and female cousins of aunts unless we have changed somewhere i think she would

                where did we get the idea of eve and her daughters obviously a punch at creationism and with the science community knowing about lucy the connection is made in his head and the chance to throw a punch at the other eve inevitable
                but my point is they have to be 7 different lines from 7 different sources
                not one

                we dont know what happened 80,000 years ago no one does we just are finding out the naitive americans & clovis culture came from europe not siberia . we just dont know . its ok not to be aware of something then to make a scenerio that fits some ones beliefs.

                i know your going to say i am wrong prove it. what documentation is there
                picture s storys written at the time. we just dont know

                funny thing researchers continue to research because they figure there is more to learn because the end all hasnt been achieved

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                • #9
                  Eve's Mother

                  I know there was a lady and we'll call her Eve that our DNA started with but I guess what most people ask me is why her and not her mother or grandmother. Eve had a particular DNA sequence that was different than her mother or grandmother, etc? Also how did they know where to start? They couldn't have had her bones. Am I making any sense? I am so new at this and am in the dark about so much of this. Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question but just wondering why they started with a certain lady or two or three that we are descended from. Thanks Again, Nan

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                  • #10
                    "Eve" was a real person. No one knows her real name, exactly where or when she lived, but the suggestion is 150,000 to 200,000 years ago in either East Africa or South Africa.

                    Her existence has been detected by both scientific analysis and scientific reasoning. The analysis involved taking hundreds or thousands of samples of mtDNA from people from all ethnicities. The differences in the sequences were studied under cladistical analysis.

                    All mtDNA found in people today is a mutated form of her mtDNA. All other forms of mtDNA from her "sisters" and "cousins" has disappeared through the process of genetic drift.

                    We don't know how many generation prior to Eve her mtDNA existed unaltered. We do know that Eve had two daughters; both survived & each had later mutations.

                    Think of it this way: Look at your mother's side of the family tree. She may have had some sisters. Her mother's mother may have had some sisters. Count the number of matrilineal descendants your mother has -that is those that inherited her mtDNA & are only linked through female generation. Do the same for your mother's mother, the same for your mother's mother's mother. You will notice that as you investigate earlier generations that your circle of matrilineal cousins increases. You might not add many, but the number always goes up, as you include increasingly more distant cousins. Eventually, you will count as many as 100 matrilineal relatives, then a thousand, then 10,000. You may have to go back in time a hundred generations to find the common ancestress. Keep doing this &, even though you don't know names or have a clean paper trail, the numbers will always increase. Finally, at some point, your list will take in every person on this planet. There is simply no one left to add. The common ancestress of this whole group is "Eve". This is merely an exercise in logic or forming a mental picture. Of course, you won't be able to identify real people beyond about 8th cousin. But they are out there. You just don't know who they are.

                    This conclusion of this mental exercise can be validated by the study of mtDNA & it's accumulated mutations.

                    Timothy Peterman
                    Kansas City, MO

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NANCY JONES
                      I know there was a lady and we'll call her Eve that our DNA started with but I guess what most people ask me is why her and not her mother or grandmother. Eve had a particular DNA sequence that was different than her mother or grandmother, etc? Also how did they know where to start? They couldn't have had her bones. Am I making any sense? I am so new at this and am in the dark about so much of this. Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question but just wondering why they started with a certain lady or two or three that we are descended from. Thanks Again, Nan
                      Ms Jones,
                      Page 198-199 and Figure #5 of the book "The Seven Daughters of Eve" explains your question. This book as well as "The Journey of Man" and "The Real Eve" that were also mentioned earlier are a must read if you are truly interested this subject. After you digest those books I would recommend first "The Great Human Diasporas" and then "The History and Geography of Human Genes" both by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza who is probably the worlds foremost expert on the subject.
                      I would pay particular attention to the post made by AngelaCP as she was trained as an evolutionary biologist. Most peolpe are trying to help but unfortunately some seem to be uninformed and/or have their own agenda.
                      Don Potter

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