12-marker matches

[Eagles1986]

Ok, I am newbie to this stuff and I apologize if this has been answered a million times already; however, I have a quick question. I just received my 12-marker results and I am testing specifically in order to compare with someone else who may be closely related to me. However, this other person was not a 12/12 match.

Does this necessarily mean that we can not have shared a common relative in recent times? I have several matches that are one and two step mutations away from me but I can't see those names.

[rucksack]

It will really depend on the differences here with your "suspected" family member.

Why not post your 12 marker results vs his 12 marker results.

Better yet, post BOTH y-search IDs.

There are known father and son tests that are 10/12, though that is not the "norm". They did come out 65/67 in the end.

Currently a distant cousin and I are:
12/12
25/25
35/37
more to come...

[MMaddi]

What Rucksack is pointing to is a basic principle of genetic genealogy - accurate comparisons can not be made between two men to establish recent common ancestry based on 12 markers. It's just not enough markers.

There are cases of 12/12 matches, especially in the most common European haplogroup R1b1b2, that fall apart at higher levels. And there are also cases of 10/12 or 11/12 match that indicate common ancestry when more markers are tested and compared.

To establish whether there is recent common ancestry, it's recommended that both men have 37 markers. Both of you should have started with that level of testing.

[gtc]

What Rucksack is pointing to is a basic principle of genetic genealogy - accurate comparisons can not be made between two men to establish recent common ancestry based on 12 markers. It's just not enough markers.

Which raises again a question of mine: why does FTDNA persist these days with 12 markers as its entry-level test? Surely by now at least 25, or better 37, should be the starting point?

[Jim Barrett]

Which raises again a question of mine: why does FTDNA persist these days with 12 markers as its entry-level test? Surely by now at least 25, or better 37, should be the starting point?

As the administrator of a few projects I always suggest starting with 37 markers but I always welcome the person who starts out with only 12. Many of those end up testing 67 markers. Some go up one step at a time.

Not everyone can afford, or is willing, to pay for a 37 marker kit. If a person orders their kit outside of a project they don't have the 25 marker option. At one point FTDNA removed it as an option for new orders for project also, but at the request of project admins they added it back.

I'd rather have a person join with 12 markers than to have they not join.

FTDNA is providing the potential customer with options. I think that is a good thing.

[gtc]

Not everyone can afford, or is willing, to pay for a 37 marker kit. If a person orders their kit outside of a project they don't have the 25 marker option.

I omitted to make clear that I think FTDNA should offer at least 25 markers as their lowest price test. If that means reducing the cost of 25 markers to remain competitive, then so be it.

[Jim Barrett]

I just received my 12-marker results and I am testing specifically in order to compare with someone else who may be closely related to me. However, this other person was not a 12/12 match.

Does this necessarily mean that we can not have shared a common relative in recent times? I have several matches that are one and two step mutations away from me but I can't see those names.

You told us that you weren't a 12/12 match, but you didn't tell us what match you have.

I have a 4th cousin twice (proven paper trail) removed and we match 10/12, 23/25 and 33/37. He hasn't tested to 67 markers.

I have a 5th cousin (proven paper trail) and we have the following genetic distances: 19 at 12 markers, 25 at 25 markers and 44 at 37 markers. Which proved there was an error in the proven paper trail. If we were testing just to find out if we shared a common paternal line we could have saved a lot of money if we had stopped with only 12 markers.

[Eagles1986]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies. I am still new at navigating my FTDNA homepage and understanding everything. I guess the question I want to ask is, how many mutations between father and son is possible?

[darroll]

I would say, Zero.

[rucksack]

See my posting above. 10/12 is not unheard of.

The bigger thing here is that you should compare a minimum of 37 markers and preferably 67.

Then, if you are some sort of R1b, you'd maybe like to get the Deep Clade R too, but we don't even know what you are yet since you didn't give us the markers or the ysearch IDs or anything else.

[rivergirl]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies. I am still new at navigating my FTDNA homepage and understanding everything. I guess the question I want to ask is, how many mutations between father and son is possible?

My brother and uncle have a difference of 2 on 43 markers.

[Jim Barrett]

Help us help you!

Ok, I am newbie to this stuff and I apologize if this has been answered a million times already; however, I have a quick question. I just received my 12-marker results and I am testing specifically in order to compare with someone else who may be closely related to me. However, this other person was not a 12/12 match.

I notice you keep asking questions, but you haven't answered the questions we need answers to if we are going to be able to give you good answers.

1) What is your Haplogroup? This is given to you on your Haplotree page.
2) You state that the person of interest isn't a 12/12 match. What is the match?
3) If it hasn't been done you and the person of interest need to add your results to Y-Search and then you should share your Y-Search ID's.

As for your question about the number of mutations between father and son, I believe zero would be the norm, nothing wrong with 1 and 2 might be pushing it. I'm assuming you are talking about between FTDNA's first 12 markers. When FTDNA lists your 12 marker matches they will exclude all matches that are more than a genetic distance of one.

If mutations didn't occur between father and son we would all have the same Y-DNA.

[gtc]

3) If it hasn't been done you and the person of interest need to add your results to Y-Search and then you should share your Y-Search ID's.

Eagles1986, in case you're not clear about how to do that, go here:

http://www.ysearch.org/add_start.asp?uid=

[darroll]

If mutations didn't occur between father and son we would all have the same Y-DNA.

My children had better be a 100% YDNA match or I will demand a paternity test.

[Eagles1986]

I notice you keep asking questions, but you haven't answered the questions we need answers to if we are going to be able to give you good answers.

1) What is your Haplogroup? This is given to you on your Haplotree page.
2) You state that the person of interest isn't a 12/12 match. What is the match?
3) If it hasn't been done you and the person of interest need to add your results to Y-Search and then you should share your Y-Search ID's.

As for your question about the number of mutations between father and son, I believe zero would be the norm, nothing wrong with 1 and 2 might be pushing it. I'm assuming you are talking about between FTDNA's first 12 markers. When FTDNA lists your 12 marker matches they will exclude all matches that are more than a genetic distance of one.

If mutations didn't occur between father and son we would all have the same Y-DNA.

Sorry that I ignored your initial follow-up question. But to answer, my haplogroup is R1B1B2. As for what the match is, i'm sure if I know how to answer that. My person of interest did not show up on my page of 12 marker matches, and I am unsure of how to determine how close he actually is with the tools on my FTDNA page. However, we do share the same haplogroup. As far as I know he doesn't have a ysearch id. As I said previously, I am still trying to understand all of this terminology.