Sicily & R1b1b2

[vinnie]

I've searched the Forum postings but haven't found what I'm looking for; apologies if I overlooked something already posted. Does anyone know of any papers addressing the origins of R1b1b2 specifically in Sicily?

Thanks,

Vinnie

[wmccown]

Sicily and R1b1b2

Hi Vinnie, Try a Google search using the term Celts in Sicily.
I know you have probably already done that, but have you downloaded the Google Book The Celts: a history by Daithi O'hOgain (a siciliam name if I ever saw one). There are several good results to the Google search term. Also see http://www.celticheritage.org/SteveJones.php. This latter website shows maps of the Mediterranean Sea and geneally shows Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica as being Neolithic settlements but the Celtic part of this is covered in the Google search term results and the Google book.

[gtc]

I found that that paper by Prof Steve Jones very interesting.

Here's the Google books link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-yd...age&q=&f=false

(see Chapter 2)

[vinnie]

Thank you both! Of course, I'm particularly interested in knowing if there's any way to distinguish Stone Age settlement lineages from Norman settlement lineages. Still waiting for the deep clade and DYS 26-37; will probably upgrade to 67. My gggf was a LaDuca (the Duke) and he came from an area of known Norman settlement near the city of Cefalu; there is a beautiful Norman church and a stone washing area for tourists to see.

[Zaru]

Thank you both! Of course, I'm particularly interested in knowing if there's any way to distinguish Stone Age settlement lineages from Norman settlement lineages. Still waiting for the deep clade and DYS 26-37; will probably upgrade to 67. My gggf was a LaDuca (the Duke) and he came from an area of known Norman settlement near the city of Cefalu; there is a beautiful Norman church and a stone washing area for tourists to see.

The entire west side of the island is full of examples of Norman architecture. The cathedral in Monreale,a suburb of Palermo, is perhaps the finest example in all of the world.

The issue with Sicily is that it is very old and diverse. So far, there is very little hard data with regard to R1b1b2 in relationship with the "Celts". I think that it is worthy of exploration since there is documentation that trade routes existed in between Rome-Sicily-Eire and also it was the springboard into the middle east. I think that L21 will show up there soon.

If you Google Norman surnames in Sicily it may turn something up. It used to at least.

[wmccown]

Sicily and R1b1b2

I have enjoyed the three posts on this subject that I didn't write and have read both the second chapter of the Google book and, of course, the Celtic Heritage reference.

After reading the second chapter of the Google book, I am reminded of the man who paid $1,000 to have his family tree traced and $10,000 to have it suppressed. Still, you can't ignore a surname like La Duca.

Vinnie, I upgraded to 67 markers at least two years ago and it has been one of the best moves that I have made. At 25 and 37 markers, there were serious clues that I am of native Ulster Irish descent rather than Scottish and have overwhelmingly Maguire DNA (a skeleton in the closet?). I urge you to upgrade to 67 markers as well.

I have taken the most recent deep subclade tests that I am eligible for and it is R1b1b2a1b5. I understand that this haplogroup is most heavily concentrated in western Scotland (Ayrshire, Argyll and the Hebrides) and in Ireland although there are many with that haplogroup in myriad other countries

[MMaddi]

The issue with Sicily is that it is very old and diverse. So far, there is very little hard data with regard to R1b1b2 in relationship with the "Celts". I think that it is worthy of exploration since there is documentation that trade routes existed in between Rome-Sicily-Eire and also it was the springboard into the middle east. I think that L21 will show up there soon.

Funny that you should mention L21 showing up in Sicily.

We just had an L21+ result in the SNP test for a Sicily Project member a few days ago. The member's gg-grandfather came to the U.S. from Sicily in the 1880s, so this seems like a true case of L21 in Sicily.

[vinnie]

The entire west side of the island is full of examples of Norman architecture. The cathedral in Monreale,a suburb of Palermo, is perhaps the finest example in all of the world.

The issue with Sicily is that it is very old and diverse. So far, there is very little hard data with regard to R1b1b2 in relationship with the "Celts". I think that it is worthy of exploration since there is documentation that trade routes existed in between Rome-Sicily-Eire and also it was the springboard into the middle east. I think that L21 will show up there soon.

If you Google Norman surnames in Sicily it may turn something up. It used to at least.

Since I know next to nothing about this haplogroup, can I surmise from these comments that L21 is common among men traditionally known as "Celt", i.e., modern Irish, Scots, etc.? Likewise, that those who are negative for this SNP maybe "Celtic" in a much older sense, but not necessarily in the modern sense? Also, are there any SNPs that may indicate Norman ancestry?

[vinnie]

I have enjoyed the three posts on this subject that I didn't write and have read both the second chapter of the Google book and, of course, the Celtic Heritage reference.

After reading the second chapter of the Google book, I am reminded of the man who paid $1,000 to have his family tree traced and $10,000 to have it suppressed. Still, you can't ignore a surname like La Duca.

Vinnie, I upgraded to 67 markers at least two years ago and it has been one of the best moves that I have made. At 25 and 37 markers, there were serious clues that I am of native Ulster Irish descent rather than Scottish and have overwhelmingly Maguire DNA (a skeleton in the closet?). I urge you to upgrade to 67 markers as well.

I have taken the most recent deep subclade tests that I am eligible for and it is R1b1b2a1b5. I understand that this haplogroup is most heavily concentrated in western Scotland (Ayrshire, Argyll and the Hebrides) and in Ireland although there are many with that haplogroup in myriad other countries

I'll upgrade to 67, but I'll probably wait for the next sale. I haven't had the time to read the book yet, but will do as soon as I get the chance. As for family surprises, this DNA result was quite a surprise since I was expecting another Mideast or Greek/Albanian connection. Now I've got to get a cousin related to my ggf to test; there are lots of them, but have lost touch. Anyway, guess I now know why I love Celtic music and have to celebrate St. Patty's Day every year. But have I earned the right to the wearin' o' the green?

[vinnie]

double posted by mistake

[vinnie]

Can anyone tell me if there are some DYS markers that are more important in determining subgroups within R1b1b2, or is it only the SNPs that really matter? In other words, when I compare differences in haplotypes, are there some differences that I can "ignore" and others I should pay more attention to when trying to find relatively close matches to the haplotype I'm interested in? Thanks.

[Zaru]

Not necessarily.

Since I know next to nothing about this haplogroup, can I surmise from these comments that L21 is common among men traditionally known as "Celt", i.e., modern Irish, Scots, etc.? Likewise, that those who are negative for this SNP maybe "Celtic" in a much older sense, but not necessarily in the modern sense? Also, are there any SNPs that may indicate Norman ancestry?

The modern term of Celt conjures up images primarily of the Irish, however, the Celts were surmised to have begun in central asia. This is only a theory. But the term Celts has been used in the earliest european writings from ancient Rome, that covers the area now known as France (Gaul),Germany, Ireland, and other northern nations. I am beginning to think that the term Celts was applied for anyone outside of Rome (because we all know that they were their own clade ) In the literary sense we have to keep a historical perspective, since we do not have a scientific one, so in a sense, we are working backwards. Bear in mind one thing- deep clade will not reveal your recent (1000 years or later) ethnic origins. This is easier to offer clarity with STR testing.

[Zaru]

Funny that you should mention L21 showing up in Sicily.

We just had an L21+ result in the SNP test for a Sicily Project member a few days ago. The member's gg-grandfather came to the U.S. from Sicily in the 1880s, so this seems like a true case of L21 in Sicily.

Congrats! I feel vindicated! It just did not seem mathematically possible for it NOT to be present. I think that the whole of Italy will reveal similar results, there are too many people with deep ties to Germany and France, as well as Austria for their not to be. My wife's cousins in Ancona for example, have been there for 400 years, but prior to that were from Germany (they surmise.)

[MMaddi]

Can anyone tell me if there are some DYS markers that are more important in determining subgroups within R1b1b2, or is it only the SNPs that really matter? In other words, when I compare differences in haplotypes, are there some differences that I can "ignore" and others I should pay more attention to when trying to find relatively close matches to the haplotype I'm interested in? Thanks.

Vinnie,

I see that the 37 marker results and some SNP test results have come in for your Laduca line. What I've seen so far gives some indication of what subclade that line belongs in.

The value of DYS390=12 (which your Laduca line has) is found at high levels in the older subclades of R1b1b2. These older subclades are mainly found at significant levels in the Near East, Balkans and southern Italy/Sicily. The younger subclades of R1b1b2 in Europe, especially northern and western Europe, have DYS390=13 as the strong modal value.

Given your Laduca line's DYS390=12 and, of course, its Sicilian ancestry, I think there's a good chance that the line belongs in one of the older subclades of R1b1b2. The SNP test results aren't complete yet, but they don't contradict my opinion. Right now, based on these partial SNP results, FTDNA has classified the line as R1b1b2a (R1b-L23), which is consistent with my opinion. The key will be what the results are for U106 and P312, which are downstream from L23. I expect them to be negative. Those results should come in later this month.

We have about 75 R1b1b2 paternal lines in the Sicily Project, of which 22 have had the deep clade SNP test. Here's the breakdown of what subclades they're in:

R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) - 2 (This is my subclade, found mainly in northern Europe.)
R1b1b2a1b (R1b-P312) - 3 (This is a common subclade, found throughout Europe.)
R1b1b2a1b3 (R1b-SRY2627) - 1 (This subclade is found mainly in Spain.)
R1b1b2a1b4 (R1b-U152) - 5 (This includes some in subclades downstream of U152. The subclade is found at high levels in northern Italy and the general area of the Alps.)
R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21) - 1 (This is found at very high levels in the British Isles, especially Ireland, but also at significant levels in those with French or German ancestry.)
R1b1b2a (R1b-L23) - 10 (Only half of these have been SNP-tested fully. The other half, based on DYS390 and other marker values, are clearly in this subclade, in my opinion.)

You can see that your Laduca line is among the 10 out of 22 that are tested or considered as R1b1b2a, the older subclade of R1b1b2. So, based on limited testing, it seems that 40-50% of R1b1b2 men with Sicilian ancestry are in this older portion of R1b1b2. If you don't mind theorizing without any conclusive evidence, this may mean that a high proportion of R1b1b2 men with Sicilian ancestry have been in Europe longer than the R1b1b2 men found in northern and western Europe. Perhaps, this older section of R1b1b2 found in Sicily came from the Near East or Balkans during the Neolithic period when agriculture was introduced into Europe.

I recommend that you join your Laduca line to a project set up for those R1b1b2 men who are U106- and P312-. The project website is at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...w/default.aspx and the administrator is Vince Vizachero. Vince is also administrator of the Italy Project and is the most knowledgeable genetic genealogist about this older section of R1b1b2 in Europe. I think he will agree with my assessment of the results of your Laduca line and will accept you in his project. He can also give you guidance on further testing and where you fit in with the various clusters of the older subclades of R1b1b2.

Mike Maddi

[gtc]

The value of DYS390=12 (which your Laduca line has) is found at high levels in the older subclades of R1b1b2.

Did you perhaps mean DYS393 for values of 12 and 13?