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  • Hg I1-253-AS6 Research

    My name is Larry Harvey and I am researching aspects of Hg I1-253-AS6 for our particular Harvey family cluster. There are currently 14 of us descending from 3 different Scots-Irish Harvey brothers from Ulster in colonial Lunenburg Co VA c1750. Of the 14, we all share the DYS385ab as 13-15 with our DYS447 at 21. I have not located many occurrences of the DYS447 = 21 amongst other I1 reports. The DYS464abcd is 14 14 15 15. Four of us now have the 67 panel results and we are all identical from panel 38-67. I match two at 65/67 and the other one at 64/67.
    By way of comparison, I have used Jim Cullen's Predictor program for the four of us. Mine (#19860/S3BHN) came in as:
    AS6=>93%, AS1=>3% & AS5=>2%.

    My first 65/67 cousins (#108391) match was:
    AS6=>93%, AS1=>3% & AS5=>3%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS458 15 (him) vs 16 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 35-36 (him) and 36-36 (me). FTDNA predicts we have a 83.35% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    The second of my 65/67 cousins (#139171) using Cullen was:
    AS6=>92%, AS1=>5% & AS5=>1%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS391 10 (him) vs 11 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 36-37(him) and 36-36 (me). FTDNA predicts we have a 83.61% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    My 64/67 cousin (#143967) using Cullen was:
    AS6=>87%, AS9a=>6%, AS1=>3% & I-L22-uN1=>2%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS437 17 (him) vs 16 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 36-38 (him) and 36-36 (me) while his DYS442 was 11 and mine was 12. FTDNA predicts we have a 67.22% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    Interestingly, I have a 36/37 match cousin (#67071) with our sole difference at CDYab of 36-37 (him) vs 36-36 (me). On the basis of this 36/37 match, FTDNA predicts we have a 87.4% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations closer than the two 65/67 matches.

    To test the sensitivity of the Cullen Predictor, I decided to extrapolate his Cullen reading with the assumption that our four 67 matches had identical 38-67 panels and run his 37 values together with our same 38-67 values. The Cullen resulted in: AS6=>93%, AS1=>2%, ASGen=>1%, AS5=>1% & AS9a=1.

    Within close AS6 cousins #67071 and #139171, these two are a 36/37 match solely differing at DYS391 of 11 vs 10.
    On this premise, Hg I1-253AS6 appears slighty more sensitive to DYS391 values than CDYab. Using FTDNA OF 83.61% vs 87.4%, it seems to support this conjecture.
    Would welcome any thoughts of using Cullen for sensitivity variations of close cousins. Additionally, any thoughts of the rarity of DYS447= 21 with Hg I1 would be greatly appreciated..
    Thanks,

    Larry Harvey
    Hg I1-253-AS6 (Ulster Scots Irish Presbyterians)
    FTDNA=19860 ySearch= S3BHN

  • #2
    Originally posted by Larry Harvey View Post
    My name is Larry Harvey and I am researching aspects of Hg I1-253-AS6 for our particular Harvey family cluster. There are currently 14 of us descending from 3 different Scots-Irish Harvey brothers from Ulster in colonial Lunenburg Co VA c1750. Of the 14, we all share the DYS385ab as 13-15 with our DYS447 at 21. I have not located many occurrences of the DYS447 = 21 amongst other I1 reports. The DYS464abcd is 14 14 15 15. Four of us now have the 67 panel results and we are all identical from panel 38-67. I match two at 65/67 and the other one at 64/67.
    By way of comparison, I have used Jim Cullen's Predictor program for the four of us. Mine (#19860/S3BHN) came in as:
    AS6=>93%, AS1=>3% & AS5=>2%.

    My first 65/67 cousins (#108391) match was:
    AS6=>93%, AS1=>3% & AS5=>3%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS458 15 (him) vs 16 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 35-36 (him) and 36-36 (me). FTDNA predicts we have a 83.35% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    The second of my 65/67 cousins (#139171) using Cullen was:
    AS6=>92%, AS1=>5% & AS5=>1%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS391 10 (him) vs 11 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 36-37(him) and 36-36 (me). FTDNA predicts we have a 83.61% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    My 64/67 cousin (#143967) using Cullen was:
    AS6=>87%, AS9a=>6%, AS1=>3% & I-L22-uN1=>2%.
    Our differing DYS values were: DYS437 17 (him) vs 16 (me) and our CDYa/b values were 36-38 (him) and 36-36 (me) while his DYS442 was 11 and mine was 12. FTDNA predicts we have a 67.22% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations.

    Interestingly, I have a 36/37 match cousin (#67071) with our sole difference at CDYab of 36-37 (him) vs 36-36 (me). On the basis of this 36/37 match, FTDNA predicts we have a 87.4% probability of a common ancestor w/i 8 generations closer than the two 65/67 matches.

    To test the sensitivity of the Cullen Predictor, I decided to extrapolate his Cullen reading with the assumption that our four 67 matches had identical 38-67 panels and run his 37 values together with our same 38-67 values. The Cullen resulted in: AS6=>93%, AS1=>2%, ASGen=>1%, AS5=>1% & AS9a=1.

    Within close AS6 cousins #67071 and #139171, these two are a 36/37 match solely differing at DYS391 of 11 vs 10.
    On this premise, Hg I1-253AS6 appears slighty more sensitive to DYS391 values than CDYab. Using FTDNA OF 83.61% vs 87.4%, it seems to support this conjecture.
    Would welcome any thoughts of using Cullen for sensitivity variations of close cousins. Additionally, any thoughts of the rarity of DYS447= 21 with Hg I1 would be greatly appreciated..
    Thanks,

    Larry Harvey
    Hg I1-253-AS6 (Ulster Scots Irish Presbyterians)
    FTDNA=19860 ySearch= S3BHN
    My Y-HG is I1-AS6 as well.

    My ancestors were Scottish (maybe Scots-Irish) Presbyterians (who settled in Colchester Co., in Nova Scotia)...

    So far I've learned that I1-AS6 is concentrated in Denmark and the British Isles.... it's a very rare clade and it is also found in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Ukraine, and Poland.

    I1-AS6 also has a big split at DYS464a,b,c,d some have the 12,14,15,15 (or 16) arrangement and others have 14,14,15,15 (or 16) arrangement.....

    Good to see another I1-AS6 on this site now I'm not the only one! (not sure if I was the only one in the first place ),

    Spruithean
    Last edited by spruithean; 10 September 2009, 06:22 PM.

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    • #3
      Hg I1-253-AS6 Analysis

      spruithean,
      I working on an EXCEL Spreeadsheet of our Haplogroup I1-253-AS6 and trying to isolate ethnic clusters here in the US. There are 14 of us on the Harvey project (Group 6 "M253") all having the 14,14,15,15 at DYS 464abcd and interestingly at DYS 447 is '21". Our 385a/b values are 13-15 while our DYS391 value is '11'.

      It looks like our first Harvey relatives arrived in British North America circa 1700+ in the first wave of Scots-Irish Presbyterians from present-day Ulster (County Antrim) to settle in colonial Virginia in Lunenburg Co around the Cub Creek Presbyterian Church founded by John Caldwell c1742. Caldwell's earlier family is French Huguenot (Protestants) settling in Ulster after Battle of Boyne.

      Additionally, there were at least 4 other different families (Anderson, Watson, Smith & Curtis) also from Ulster who arrived approximately the same time from Counties Derry & Down to settle in colonial Virginia Presbyterian church areas. Their Hg I1-253-AS6 yDNA is very similar to our Harvey yDNA and matching at 31-32/37 with the same values listed above. I believe this may be a good example of ethnic clustering.

      I examined the FTDNA Hg I data and of the 1583 folks who were anything Hg I1 - there was a total of 11 who possessed the DYS 447 = 21. This makes about 0.69% which suggest this does not occur often. I examined what I could about the 11 and two who I could trace across the pond were Seay descendents who come from French Huguenots that also settled in Ulster in County Down probably after King William's victory at the Battle of the Boyne before migrating. William brought large numbers of Huguenots to Ulster and later to British North America in the Virginia colony (e.g., King William County & Orange County). The Huguenots were largely absorbed in the VA colonies into the Scots-Irish Presbyterian clusters from Ulster

      There appears to be a cluster of 7 families (Harvey, Anderson, Smith, Watson, Curtis, Vest & Bohon) having a common ancestor in not-to-distant past. HgI1-253-AS6 appears to have its roots in southern Jutland of Denmark & Friesland (Holland) and there were many Viking colonies along the eastern coast of Ireland, particular Dublin & Ulster.

      Larry Harvey
      FTDNA-19860 ySearch- S3BHN
      HARVEY DNA Project
      I1 DNA Project

      Comment


      • #4
        What mtDNA do you have in your family? Mine is U5b2, and was almost certainly in Virginia back in the 1700's. I'm still trying to find out where in the UK it came from.

        Orange County back then was huge. Many of the modern counties in NW Virginia were formed from it.

        Comment


        • #5
          mtDNA Trail

          Sorry, I have not yet ran the mtDNA back due to my Mother's paper geneaology from her birth in TN thru her mother (my GM) born in KY. My maternal GM's link will skip directly back three generations to a daughter of the Eastern Branch of the Cherokee Nation woman named 'Jack' in western SC during the Rev War. She lived with a Tory man from the 'Old 96' of SC trying to avoid contact with the colonial forces (the good guys) and had 3 kids with him. After her death, he took the girl away from the tribe (against Cherokee Law) back to Charleston and ultimately migrated up to TN to bring my line to KY.
          To answer your question, I am trying to sort out my yDNA as a Hg I1-253-AS6 before I attempt to wade into the Cherokee aspect. I must do some more research to understand the various haplogroups as they might apply to Native Americans.
          Larry Harvey
          FTDNA 19860 YSearch S3BHN
          HARVEY DNA Project
          I1 DNA Project
          Last edited by Larry Harvey; 11 September 2009, 11:02 PM.

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          • #6
            I'm sorry I was so intrusive. I was just curious, since my mtDNA comes from the general region. Mine probably came down to North Carolina (Anson-Richmond County) from Virginia. But whether it was the coastal plain Virginians or the up-country Virginians, I don't know. From NC she went to Kentucky, and after a couple of decades there, to Indiana. Her husband's lineage is also found in Tennessee. Here is a valuable link:

            http://www.falconberry.com/

            But I've also gleaned info from Ancestry.com.

            U5b2 & R1a1

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            • #7
              mtDNA-Frederick Co VA

              I checked out your ref and you were talking about the place where I currently live. Jost Hite was a big name in Frederick Co VA and had thousands of acres. I have attached the link to the land grants:

              http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/fre...s/v5360000.txt

              Our road through the apple orchards intersected Marlborough Rd and continued across as Hite's Rd down toward the North Folk of the Shenandoah. My maternal relatives were from the same area and built Fort Holman on the spot where I-81 currently crosses the Shendandoah. They too left circa mid-1740's to move on down to western NC prior to moving thru Cumberland Gap to the Wilderness Trail into KY.

              Marlborough Rd turns into Lord Fairfax Pike as it enters Stephens City where I live. Jost Hite had sons Isaac & Jacob and formed the 1st Episcopal Church in the Shenandoah Valley. Perhaps your early roots are also Episcopal based upon the similar names. Many of Hite's early associates were also from Wales.
              Frederick County History: Lord Fairfax was buried under the old Episcopal church, which was on the public square. The land on which it stood was given by him to the society, for the construction of the church.
              http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/fre...irfax63gbs.txt

              Hope this helps you with the early VA search for your maternal lines.
              Larry Harvey
              FTDNA 19860 ySearch S3BHN
              HARVEY DNA project
              I1 DNA Project

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you Larry for your interesting thread! Mostly I've been trying to figure out where my maternal mtDNA came from, prior to her supposed birth date of 1760 in North Carolina. The Falconbury line with the Virginia connection doesn't directly pertain to my mtDNA. But on the other hand, my maternal line may well have accompanied them into Virginia and North Carolina.

                I would think the Episcopal Church would be normal for the main stream middle class back then, although the Falconbury family got real friendly with the Friends (Quakers) back in New Jersey (prior to moving into Virginia). Anson-Richmond County in NC looks to have been originally settled by people of English origin (not Scothch or Borderers, judging from names and maps).

                I myself have never been to the interesting Shenandoah region, although I was born in Baltimore, Maryland in 1937 (my dad had a job there for a few years). After that it was to Minnesota & Wisconsin, until moving to Florida in 1952.

                I have a couple of books back-ordered from Scholars Bookshelf about the Revolutionary War fighting in the South. Since Jacob Falconbury (b.1757) fought in it, maybe I can get a better perspective of that period.
                Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 13 September 2009, 01:21 AM.

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