Corrrelation between DNA matches, different Family surnames and different Haplo Group

[JBlack]

Hi All,
Slightly technical question, but I will bet it affects many researchers. Through FTDNA testing of 37 markers (soon to be upgraded to 67), I have found close matches with two marker differences with two people of different surnames in the 25 marker group and three persons in the 37 group who are no more than 4 matches different (and by only 1 to two numbers value on specific alelles). The other surnames appear to match RIb1 haplogroup, and mine tests Q1a3. My proven genealogy reasearch goes back to 1720 to an ancestor who came to America, settled in PA, and later moved to NC where he died in 1818 at 98 yrs of age. It is thought that he immigrated from Ulster or somewhwre in Great Britain, perhaps lowland Scotland. History of the Scottish Clans hints that many families named Black , Brown, Green and White were originally family members of the Lamont and MacGregor clans who were decimated during Clan "Wars", took the new name for protection and hiding, and changed locations. If this were true, I can see how someone named Brown and Black could be closely linked by DNA with just a couple of 'alelle mutations' at one or two sites, perhaps even four, but how would differences of HaploGroup differences figure into this, say the difference between someone Q1a3 and someone R1b1? Could there have been a variant or error in the HaploGroup test?

JBlack

[Jim Honeychuck]

Welcome.

Put your numbers into this predictor program to see if they yield ambiguous results: http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5b/hapest5.htm

Regards,
Jim

[redtulip]

Maybe someone will match..y-DNA Halogroup R1b1b2..Maybe someone from Scotland.Looking forward to the reply..redtulip

[MMaddi]

Hi All,
Slightly technical question, but I will bet it affects many researchers. Through FTDNA testing of 37 markers (soon to be upgraded to 67), I have found close matches with two marker differences with two people of different surnames in the 25 marker group and three persons in the 37 group who are no more than 4 matches different (and by only 1 to two numbers value on specific alelles). The other surnames appear to match RIb1 haplogroup, and mine tests Q1a3. My proven genealogy reasearch goes back to 1720 to an ancestor who came to America, settled in PA, and later moved to NC where he died in 1818 at 98 yrs of age. It is thought that he immigrated from Ulster or somewhwre in Great Britain, perhaps lowland Scotland. History of the Scottish Clans hints that many families named Black , Brown, Green and White were originally family members of the Lamont and MacGregor clans who were decimated during Clan "Wars", took the new name for protection and hiding, and changed locations. If this were true, I can see how someone named Brown and Black could be closely linked by DNA with just a couple of 'alelle mutations' at one or two sites, perhaps even four, but how would differences of HaploGroup differences figure into this, say the difference between someone Q1a3 and someone R1b1? Could there have been a variant or error in the HaploGroup test?

JBlack

The first important question is whether your haplogroup (Q1a3) and those you're comparing to (R1b1) is based on predictions or on the results of a SNP test. If these haplogroups are based on SNP tests, then you and the ones you're comparing to aren't related for thousands of years. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if they have mixed up your sample with those of another FTDNA customer and the haplogroup you're assigned to by FTDNA is wrong.

Do you realize that your haplogroup indicates likely Native American ancestry in the paternal line? According to the ISOGG yDNA haplogroup page for Q, at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpQ09.html, "The Q1a3a sub-group is almost exclusively associated with Native American populations." Since you state your ancestor came to the U.S. from the British Isles in the 18th century, something is either very unusual here or perhaps FTDNA has your haplogroup wrong. If they are right about your haplogroup, it seems to indicate that somewhere along the line one of your paternal line ancestors was a Native American.

[Zaru]

Npe?

There also could very well have been a non paternal event, an adoption or otherwise, in your paternal ancestral line, which would preclude any paper trail that you may have.

I am a victim and it's very difficult to figure out in our particular case.

[JBlack]

Thanks for your replies to my post. The points you all raise are ones that i have been wondering about. I have been deep clade tested by FTDNA and my Haplo Group determined to be Q1a3, and not Q1a3a. Therefore, I wondered if Q1a3's were also found in Scandinavia, or only travelled East and over the land bridge from Central Asia. I also wondered if there was the possibility of an error, how does one go about requesting FTDNA to rerun or recheck a sample?

JBlack

[Zaru]

Thanks for your replies to my post. The points you all raise are ones that i have been wondering about. I have been deep clade tested by FTDNA and my Haplo Group determined to be Q1a3, and not Q1a3a. Therefore, I wondered if Q1a3's were also found in Scandinavia, or only travelled East and over the land bridge from Central Asia. I also wondered if there was the possibility of an error, how does one go about requesting FTDNA to rerun or recheck a sample?

JBlack

Can you post your Y Search for us?

The only close matches that you are getting are all R1b's? Q's and R's are very closely related to each other on the phylogenic tree, but since you are snp tested, I don't know how you can convince FTDNA to run the test again. Did you have a male relative test? If so, were you the same Haplogroup? You would need to provide solid evidence of a possible error on their part. Perhaps someone else can chime in???

[T E Peterman]

My understanding is that Q1a3 can be found at a low level in Scandinavia (a few percent). Q1a3* is sometimes called "European Q", because many of those in this haplogroup are European. Q1a3a+ is Native American.

My Eggleston line goes back to Yorkshire in England. Many descendants of Bygod Eggleston (d 1673 Windsor, CT) have been tested so far & all are Q1a3. I suspect that this was carried to England by Vikings, who in turn got Q1a3 from reindeer herders/ hunters in prehistoric times, who probably followed the herds in a circumpolar migration from Eastern Siberia/ Beringia to Scandinavia. I visualize a scenario in which Q1a3 lived in Beringia. As the waters rose at the close of the Ice Age, they either moved into Alaska or back into Siberia.

Timothy Peterman

[JBlack]

Hi All.
When I go bck to the FTDNA pages and check the "HaploTree" my results show Q1a3*, so perhaps that is an indication that my Q group did follow a Westerly migration route into Scandinavia and then on to Ireland.
Every little bit of information helps, but it would still be better if I can find some definitive matches with more substantial proofs.
JBlack

[JBlack]

Hi All.
When I go bck to the FTDNA pages and check the "HaploTree" my results show Q1a3*, so perhaps that is an indication that my Q group did follow a Westerly migration route into Scandinavia and then on to Ireland.
Every little bit of information helps, but it would still be better if I can find some definitive matches with more substantial proofs.
JBlack

[T E Peterman]

The great thing about belonging to a group that runs at a really low frequency for a geographical area is that it eliminates perhaps 99.5% of hypothetical kinship possibilities. Now, when someone named Black or Brown or Green approaches you wondering if your paper trails intersect, just tell him to get his y-DNA done. If he is anything other than Q1a3, you can dismiss his suggestion without further consideration.

But if you meet someone named Black who is Q1a3, you will know instantly to take that possibility quite seriously.

Timothy Peterman

[JBlack]

Can you post your Y Search for us?

The only close matches that you are getting are all R1b's? Q's and R's are very closely related to each other on the phylogenic tree, but since you are snp tested, I don't know how you can convince FTDNA to run the test again. Did you have a male relative test? If so, were you the same Haplogroup? You would need to provide solid evidence of a possible error on their part. Perhaps someone else can chime in???

What information would you like to see from a "Y search" basis?

JBlack

[Zaru]

What information would you like to see from a "Y search" basis?

JBlack

The public forum of Y Search, would let us compare values with the R1b's that you are matching.

The whole SNP science to me, makes str testing ALMOST obsolete. Wherein you match STR's with only R1b's at significant levels-you carry one snp that makes you Q. To me, that makes str testing obsolete for Haplogroup Testing. STR testing only comes into play after you have been defined on the phylogenic tree. As Efgen stated you may have a case to have retesting done. Let us know how it goes.

[gtc]

To me, that makes str testing obsolete for Haplogroup Testing. STR testing only comes into play after you have been defined on the phylogenic tree.

If I understand your point correctly, I think you are saying that FTDNA's matching algorithm currently produces too many false "matches" on haplotype, and that is evident when you look at the haplogroups of the so-called matches.

FTDNA recognizes that problem and has announced that it will introduce SmartMatching sometime this year, which I gather will filter out the noise in the haplotype matching process for family tree purposes.