Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Origin of haplogroups R 1b and I

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
    Ok, your right.



    I can agree to this description.

    I would however think of 3 components.
    It would also neatly fit to the Tuisto myth, that the Germanic tribes are born of Tuistos 3 sons.

    Ingo (possibly Ango), father of the tribes of Scandinavia and the northsea coast.

    Irmin, father of the tribes in the West of Germany and at the Rhine.

    Suevo (sometimes Suebo), father of the tribes in eastern Germany, Czechia and Poland.

    Traditionally its believed this 3 parts represent 3 different religious denominations but... blabla... it much better fits the 3 bronce age cultures that existed on the place later inhabited by those tribes.

    Like here:
    http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5602/77105409.jpg
    Interesting map, could the people in the Nordic Bronze Age culture be part of Haplogroups I1 and I2b? I'm not an expert on any haplogroup but I find I know more about HG I1, then others....

    I thought the Germanic people came from Mannus? Mannus' three sons, Tuisto was Mannus father was he not?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by spruithean View Post
      Interesting map, could the people in the Nordic Bronze Age culture be part of Haplogroups I1 and I2b?
      The page from wich I took this map (wich represents the year 1500BC) estaminates "Nordic Bronceage" beeing a I1/R1a mix at that time.
      Tumulus a R1b, I2b, E-V13, G-2a mix.
      And Trzciniec beeing a R1a, E-V13, J2b, I2, I2a mix.


      I'm not an expert on any haplogroup but I find I know more about HG I1, then others....
      Yeah. That page favores I1 as the oldest haplogroup of Scandinavia (as it in general favores "I" as the true "native" Haplogroup of ALL Europeans....and the R1 branch as the last ones to arrive on European soil (even later than J or E))

      With it beeing virtually the only Scandinavian HG in 5000BC.
      R1a arriving in Scandinavia in 2500BC and R1b in 1200BC.
      But there are other voices that favor R1b as the oldest Haplogroup in at least Sweden, because its more diverse.
      the "Corded Ware" perdiod of time is often thought to be responsable for the earliest R1a injection into the Scandinavian bloodbase.
      Map of Corded ware:
      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...re_culture.png

      Male Skeletons from 2700BC in central Germany, connected to the Corded Ware Culture had been R1a for example.

      I thought the Germanic people came from Mannus? Mannus' three sons, Tuisto was Mannus father was he not?
      Depends on the version.
      There is even a version where Tuistos son is Teuto and Teutos son is Mannus...and then yes the 3 sons.

      But the important part is the 3 sons.
      Last edited by Daniel72; 24 June 2009, 02:43 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        I also recalled one thing:
        One should not have such a Haplogroup fetish.

        The thing is, ones grandfather at mothers side could be "J" while oneself could be R1b.

        You could say: Hey he is J, he is totaly not related with me. Not in the past 20.000 years anyways. But face it... your closer related to this J, than your to a random R1b

        Its virtually sure, that you have anchestors of ALL the haplogroups that exist in your area. Just not in that ONE paternal line.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
          I also recalled one thing:
          One should not have such a Haplogroup fetish.

          The thing is, ones grandfather at mothers side could be "J" while oneself could be R1b.

          You could say: Hey he is J, he is totaly not related with me. Not in the past 20.000 years anyways. But face it... your closer related to this J, than your to a random R1b

          Its virtually sure, that you have anchestors of ALL the haplogroups that exist in your area. Just not in that ONE paternal line.
          I know that, but many of my lines I can't get tested,

          and I don't have a haplogroup fetish, just that I've ended up reading more about HG I1.

          I have the feeling that my maternal grandfather (or known to me as Opa) carries a form of R1b, being from the Netherlands and all.

          But you are right with that J/R1b scenario!

          Cheers

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by spruithean View Post
            I don't consider Haplogroup I as a haplogroup originating among the Teutons, I don't think any haplogroup belongs to one culture (some Scandinavians have Haplogroup Q (which is commonly found in Native Americans and people from Kamchatka, etc.) but more like a Haplogroup from the Balkans. Its subclades, I1, I2a and I2b originate in different places.

            I1 (I-M253) = 25,000 years ago in Northern France? trekked north to Scandinavia
            (I1[old I1a] has subclades of I1a, I1b, I1c, I1d and I1e)
            (I2>and its subclades):
            I2a (I-P37.2) = 25,000 years ago in SE. Europe
            I2b (I-M436) = 25,000 years ago in Northern France? trekked north to Scandinavia...

            Thats what my Haplotree map on MyFTDNA page says.

            Haplogroup I is not a variation of R1b, there at completely different branches of the tree.

            You can find a lot more info over the web. Look up Haplogroup I on Wikipedia, and look up Haplogroup R on there as well.

            The Haplogroup I page includes all (well not exactly all) of its "descendants".
            U r talking about 25 000 Were this inhabitants anything like the modern Humans or they were neanderthals or some kind of other pre-Human Species?????

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by sturmgewehr View Post
              U r talking about 25 000 Were this inhabitants anything like the modern Humans or they were neanderthals or some kind of other pre-Human Species?????
              If you notice at the beginning of this thread S Trangsrud stated that the information on the Haplotree maps on FTDNA is out of date.

              Originally posted by s transgrud
              The R1b & I information, from FTDNA Haplotree pages, is outdated.
              Humans don't descend from Neanderthals. Infact we are related but do not descend from Neanderthals. There are studies and pages on the web that tell you of this. Along with videos online.

              They would have been human though. More modern. (But perhaps not fully modern, maybe "Archaic" if we can use such a term"), Perhaps Cro-Magnon. They would have been dark complected I think. But thats just my opinion on there skin colour, but does that matter in the long run?

              Good luck in your searches,
              spruithean

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                If you notice at the beginning of this thread S Trangsrud stated that the information on the Haplotree maps on FTDNA is out of date.



                Humans don't descend from Neanderthals. Infact we are related but do not descend from Neanderthals. There are studies and pages on the web that tell you of this. Along with videos online.

                They would have been human though. More modern. (But perhaps not fully modern, maybe "Archaic" if we can use such a term"), Perhaps Cro-Magnon. They would have been dark complected I think. But thats just my opinion on there skin colour, but does that matter in the long run?

                Good luck in your searches,
                spruithean
                So Cro-Magnon was a modern Human I mean a Branch of Homo Sapiens Sapiens????

                What do u think about their Haplogroup???? which oen could it be ?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Origin of haplogroups R1b and I

                  The website below is a scholarly paper that all readers of this post may enjoy. I suggest scrolling to the bottom of the page at the site and working backwards as a means of getting to what interests you faster. See http://www.celticheritage.org/SteveJones.php. It has haplogroup trees and maps with route diagrams. Also, the author apparently
                  updates the site every two months.

                  I found the site by using R1b1b2a1b5 as a search term on Microsoft's Bing search engine.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sturmgewehr View Post
                    So Cro-Magnon was a modern Human I mean a Branch of Homo Sapiens Sapiens????

                    What do u think about their Haplogroup???? which oen could it be ?
                    Cro-Magnon's are one of the main groups of "Anatomically Modern Humans" or just shortened to AMH... thats odd wasn't there an R1b type called AMH?

                    But since Cro-Magnons are anatomically modern humans they mark the beginning of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens era.

                    Personally I think the Cro-Magnons were yHaplogroup IJ or I. But thats just my opinion...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                      Cro-Magnon's are one of the main groups of "Anatomically Modern Humans" or just shortened to AMH... thats odd wasn't there an R1b type called AMH?

                      But since Cro-Magnons are anatomically modern humans they mark the beginning of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens era.

                      Personally I think the Cro-Magnons were yHaplogroup IJ or I. But thats just my opinion...
                      so which race did this cros belong too where they blond hair or blue eyes or somethinjg like that.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sturmgewehr View Post
                        so which race did this cros belong too where they blond hair or blue eyes or somethinjg like that.
                        Does that really matter?

                        Perhaps the Cro-Magnons were darker then the Neanderthals?

                        Cro-Magnons would have been more recent migrants to Europe. The Neanderthals were there longer so they would have started to lose pigment....

                        I don't know really. I don't think race matters in these sort of discussions.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          so which race did this cros belong too where they blond hair or blue eyes or somethinjg like that.
                          Not blue eyes for sure.
                          As the mutation that causes light (Greens, Greys and Blues) eyes is only between 6.000-10.000 years old, originating in the Ukraine possibly.

                          So they had dark brown eyes for sure, back then.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Svan population in the western mountainous part of Republic of Georgia has predominantly blue/gray eyes. Most of the Svans tested belong to the Hg F* which is much older than 8-10 thousand years...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re age of haplogroups

                              The most recent ice age was not very long ago, as far as mutations go. Haplogroups and sub-haplogroups were already in existence when most humans retreated south (in my opinion).

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X