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Origin of haplogroups R 1b and I

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  • Origin of haplogroups R 1b and I

    I am very interested in the origin of the Northwest-Europeans and
    I should like to know where their ancestors lived during the Ice Age.
    In southwest France? What is the relation between haplogroups
    R 1b en R 1a? When and where did they live together?

    About haplogroup I: this is a typical haplogroup of the original Teutons.
    What is the history of this haplogroup? Is it a kind or variation of
    haplogroup R 1b?
    In advance many thanks for your information.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Haganus View Post
    I am very interested in the origin of the Northwest-Europeans and
    I should like to know where their ancestors lived during the Ice Age.
    In southwest France? What is the relation between haplogroups
    R1b en R1a? When and where did they live together?

    About haplogroup I: this is a typical haplogroup of the original Teutons.
    What is the history of this haplogroup? Is it a kind or variation of
    haplogroup R1b?
    In advance many thanks for your information.
    I don't consider Haplogroup I as a haplogroup originating among the Teutons, I don't think any haplogroup belongs to one culture (some Scandinavians have Haplogroup Q (which is commonly found in Native Americans and people from Kamchatka, etc.) but more like a Haplogroup from the Balkans. Its subclades, I1, I2a and I2b originate in different places.

    I1 (I-M253) = 25,000 years ago in Northern France? trekked north to Scandinavia
    (I1[old I1a] has subclades of I1a, I1b, I1c, I1d and I1e)
    (I2>and its subclades):
    I2a (I-P37.2) = 25,000 years ago in SE. Europe
    I2b (I-M436) = 25,000 years ago in Northern France? trekked north to Scandinavia...

    Thats what my Haplotree map on MyFTDNA page says.

    Haplogroup I is not a variation of R1b, there at completely different branches of the tree.

    You can find a lot more info over the web. Look up Haplogroup I on Wikipedia, and look up Haplogroup R on there as well.

    The Haplogroup I page includes all (well not exactly all) of its "descendants".
    Last edited by spruithean; 22 June 2009, 06:07 PM. Reason: forgot to answer one more question

    Comment


    • #3
      "R1a" and "R1b" are variations of R1. They are siblings in a way.
      Both originate in Russia but went on different ways into Europe.
      Both are related to Haplogroups that are common in Asia and in native Americans.

      R1a and R1b are traditional connected to the original speakers of Indo-European languages.

      "I" originates on the Balkans or possibly the middle east.
      And its related to "J" wich is common in the middle east.
      "I" and "J" are siblings....
      "I" is also the possibly oldest living haplogroup of Europe. (But not the one of the first arriving modern men)

      The "original Teutons" had been a Haplogroup mix already.

      The old (Pre-Genetic) idea of how the Teutons came to live was.... that the "Waraxe people" (Corded Ware Culture) arrived in Scandinavia and intermixed with the Natives. The result beeing the Teutons. The waraxe people also bringing in the Indo-European language.
      Old German books (early 20. century) used to call the WarAxe People "Indogermanen" (Indo-Germanics) btw. And claimed them beeing from India (LOL) and coming right to Scandinavia....

      I saw some sources that claim those Scandinavian natives to be predominantly "I1" and the war axe people to be predominantly R1a.
      And R1b coming later to Scandinavia.

      Other sources claim R1b beeing the oldest haplogroup of Sweden and I1 and R1a coming later.
      Last edited by Daniel72; 22 June 2009, 07:37 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Haganus View Post
        I am very interested in the origin of the Northwest-Europeans and
        I should like to know where their ancestors lived during the Ice Age.
        In southwest France? What is the relation between haplogroups
        R 1b en R 1a? When and where did they live together?

        About haplogroup I: this is a typical haplogroup of the original Teutons.
        What is the history of this haplogroup? Is it a kind or variation of
        haplogroup R 1b?
        In advance many thanks for your information.
        This is a good summary: The Peopling of Europe
        http://www.buildinghistory.org/artic...ngeurope.shtml

        The R1b & I information, from FTDNA Haplotree pages, is outdated.

        Comment


        • #5
          Linguists have known for some time that the Germanic languages belong to the centum portion of the Indo-European language family. They have also known that the Germanic languages have been shifted by a non-centum influence. This influence was once attributed to an extinct aboriginal language; however some now say the influence was nothing more than early speakers of the Balto-Slavic branch of the satem portion of the Indo-European language family.

          What does the DNA say? In the most general way, when one looks at the R subclade distribution across Europe: 1) R1b close to 100%, R1a close to 0%, the languages are Celtic or Italic (Rumania might be an exception)*, 2) R1b majority/ R1a minority,the languages are Germanic, 3) R1b minority/ R1a majority, the languages are Balto-Slavic.
          *the Basques remain an anomaly when it comes to y-DNA & language

          I see this as confirmation that the Germans emerged in that zone where Celtic speaking R1b folk were coming into close contact with Balto-Slavic speaking R1a folk, and is likely derived from both populations.

          Timothy Peterman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by s trangsrud View Post
            This is a good summary: The Peopling of Europe
            http://www.buildinghistory.org/artic...ngeurope.shtml

            The R1b & I information, from FTDNA Haplotree pages, is outdated.
            Thats why I put ? marks after Northern France... I had remembered reading that I1 and I2b originated in the North of Europe and not in France.

            Was I2b the old I1c?

            Comment


            • #7
              What does the DNA say? In the most general way, when one looks at the R subclade distribution across Europe: 1) R1b close to 100%, R1a close to 0%, the languages are Celtic or Italic (Rumania might be an exception)*, 2) R1b majority/ R1a minority,the languages are Germanic, 3) R1b minority/ R1a majority, the languages are Balto-Slavic.
              *the Basques remain an anomaly when it comes to y-DNA & language
              Two other exceptions:
              Iceland and Norway

              In both countries, R1a is smaller then the others BUT that big that its not really a "Minority".

              This map here also shows, that the germanic speaking countries are good in the influence region of R1a.
              I dont really call 1/4 or 1/3 a "Minority".
              Maybe 1/10 or 1/20 are a minority.

              http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/11/r1a.jpg

              Well, maybe we one day find, that Iceland was invaded by Balto-Slavic tribes, rather than Norse Vikings with stolen British women.
              Last edited by Daniel72; 23 June 2009, 01:16 PM.

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              • #8
                MAde one with Pre-Migration borders:

                http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/881...ionborders.jpg

                The interesting part is, its said, the East-Germanic languages are closer to the North-Germanic languages than to the West-Germanic ones. And at least today, its the West-Germanic speakers that lack R1a the most.

                Its also still disputed over if West-Germanic speakers are germanized Celts anyways.
                And its known that even in Danmark, there had been Celtic tribes.
                Last edited by Daniel72; 23 June 2009, 03:15 PM.

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                • #9
                  Like the maps Daniel.

                  Yes I think there were Celtic peoples in West-Germanic areas and Denmark.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It could be that the R content of so called Germanic populations is nothing more than a blend of "germanized Celts" and "germanized Slavs", with the so-called German language being nothing more than a rather advanced centum language falling under a rather strong influence of a satem language.

                    Timothy Peterman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      for me, "Germanic" starts 1000BC.
                      Before 1000 BC there had not been "Germanics".

                      If the R content was part of the populations before 1000BC, then they are "native" Germanic. In my opinion.

                      Its like with a cake.

                      There is flour, eggs, suggar....
                      You could say a cake is flour and only flour alone, because its the majority.
                      And all the eggs and suggar are not native but "caked" forreigners.

                      I say, the eggs and the suggar are native parts of a cake.

                      Would you want to tell Hitler that Aryans (R1a people! LOL) are not at least a small part of his Germanic supermen? *snickers*
                      he was however wrong with his estamination whos got the most Aryan blood. Its the Slavs and Balts not the Germanics.
                      Last edited by Daniel72; 24 June 2009, 03:56 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Suposedly there is a difference between "medieval" samples and "modern" samples, if it comes to R1a in Brittish regions, settled by vikings:

                        http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba103/b...ngs_purple.png

                        The medieval samples are more diverse (if it comes to haplogroups) than the modern ones.
                        R1a frequence seems to have decreased extremely.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for posting this map of R1a. Was that from the Capelli survey?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My point is that if we decided that "germanized Celts" should be thrown out of the definition of German, then "germanized Balto-Slavs" should also be thrown out of the definition of German.

                            This would be equal to throwing out the flour, eggs, and sugar. What's left? No cake.

                            Since perhaps 3 millenia have passed, it may be less obvious, but being German was sort of like being American; they were a new group, forged from several older and only extremely distantly related populations, who shared only a common geography. The Germans popped into existence when those early Celts and early Balto-Slavs started talking to each other.

                            Timothy Peterman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                              My point is that if we decided that "germanized Celts" should be thrown out of the definition of German, then "germanized Balto-Slavs" should also be thrown out of the definition of German.

                              This would be equal to throwing out the flour, eggs, and sugar. What's left? No cake.
                              Ok, your right.

                              Since perhaps 3 millenia have passed, it may be less obvious, but being German was sort of like being American; they were a new group, forged from several older and only extremely distantly related populations who shared only a common geography. The Germans popped into existence when those early Celts and early Balto-Slavs started talking to each other.
                              I can agree to this description.

                              I would however think of 3 components.
                              It would also neatly fit to the Tuisto myth, that the Germanic tribes are born of Tuistos 3 sons.

                              Ingo (possibly Ango), father of the tribes of Scandinavia and the northsea coast.

                              Irmin, father of the tribes in the West of Germany and at the Rhine.

                              Suevo (sometimes Suebo), father of the tribes in eastern Germany, Czechia and Poland.

                              Traditionally its believed this 3 parts represent 3 different religious denominations but... blabla... it much better fits the 3 bronce age cultures that existed on the place later inhabited by those tribes.

                              Like here:
                              http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5602/77105409.jpg

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