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  • #16
    Originally posted by J. Fold View Post
    I agree, but what was the population of western Europe in the 1600's?
    Maybe a just few hundred people could change the genetic makeup...

    Hundreds of thousands were taken by ship by the Europeans, presumably to Europe. Columbus took Native Americans back to Europe. And the east coast was raided and Indians were being kidnapped for over 80 years before Henry Hudson's first "official" visit. that is why the east coast was kinda sparse...many were already taken, and others moved inland to stay away from the coast.
    Read about that guy who welcomed the Pilgrims. I can't remember his name.... he was kidnapped and taken to Spain and England and some monks freed him and he sailed back home only to find that all his people were gone. He already knew the English language by the time the Pilgrims arrived.

    edit: He was known as Samoset. Here is a reference about how he was kidnapped and taken to Spain and escaped to England, and how he learned English. He happens to be a famous kidnapped Indian. There were many more we don't know about.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=zpS...esult&resnum=8
    Last edited by rainbow; 20 June 2009, 01:54 PM.

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    • #17
      Massasoit was the one that was kidnapped and taken to Spain and escaped to England, learned English, then came back home. Samoset picked up the English language from English fishermen who were fishing off the coast of Maine.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by tomcat View Post


        Moreover, at the present state of sampling, Native Y and Mt do not seem widespread in Europe, so one must further suppose those direct lines were extinguished while autosomal signals were preserved.

        I concur

        There is some Native American YDNA & MTDNA in Europe, but chances are that there is way more autosomal dna.


        http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us
        Last edited by rainbow; 24 June 2009, 05:46 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by rainbow View Post
          I concur

          There is some Native American YDNA & MTDNA in Europe, but chances are that there is way more autosomal dna.


          http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

          Excellent!!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by tomcat View Post

            As you seem to know, there was 17c Swedish colony in New Jersey, largely peopled by Finns, that was successful in trade with Natives and expansionary. It posed a threat to New Netherlands colony and was destroyed. So, a Finnish genealogy with deep roots in the New World could have a Native component.
            http://people.virginia.edu/~mgf2j/finns.html
            The local Lenape (Delaware) Indians called the Scandinavians "brothers" because they bought only enough land to live on. "There was no agriculture," wrote Israel Acrelius in 1750, "or no more than was required by absolute necessity." The "land was superabundant, the inhabitants few, and the government not strict." At first they had no horses or beasts of burden. The rivers flowing down to the Bay were their highways into the country. And although the Delaware Indians moved farther inland it was their "custom [after they had planted their maize] to come forth in great numbers to visit the Swedes and trade with them."

            Cordial relations with natives naturally led to cultural exchange. Swedes and Finns, Acrelius said, became so "acquainted with the [Delaware] language" that "there are still some of the older ones who express themselves quite well in it." Old settlers who remeniced to Peter Kalm in 1747 went even farther, saying that, with "no other people to associate with than the native Indians," the settlers "soon began to differ in their actions and manners from the Europeans and old Swedes and began to resemble the Indians. At the arrival of the English," he said, "the Swedes to a large extent were not much better than savages."
            ...
            The colony passed into British hands in 1664 as spoils of the Dutch surrender of New Netherlands, and for eighteen years little changed. But when the Quakers came in 1682 they lusted after the Swedes' land on the Delaware, so William Penn tried to lure the Swedes to the interior with ten thousand acres on Manatawny Creek "sixty miles higher up in the country ... under the pretext that they might there have more room, and live together." The Finns and Swedes were practically Indians; let them be the Indians' neighbors. When not all of the Swedes went for the carrot Penn applied a stick.

            Like Native Americans, Finns and Swedes moved beyond the reach of government: higher up the Delaware, east into New Jersey, west along the Schuylkill, and south into the "Hunting Country" at the northern end of the Chesapeake Bay. Perhaps not surprisingly, Native Americans welcomed transient woodsmen like John Hansson Steelman, who bartered for deer skins and furs with Nanticokes, Conoys, and Conestogas on Big Elk Creek in Cecil County, Md. Like most Finns he kept moving

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            • #21
              At the time of migration Sami populations still existed much further south in both todays Sweden and Finland, is it possible that there might have been a Sami influence or component in this migration that made the people understand the native americans better than others Europeans?

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              • #22
                Even in the NW of Minnesota in the beginning of the 20th Century, the local Native Americans interacted quite a bit with my ancestors.

                My Great-grandfather told a story about how the local Native Americans considered the Finnish people to be more like them.

                I don't know the words. Apparently there was a word that was for most other Europeans that was something more along the lines of "stranger" and the word applied to the Finns was something more along the lines of "people like us".

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                • #23
                  Finnish pioneers, Ojibwe found common ground

                  Janna Goerdt Duluth News Tribune
                  Published Tuesday, July 22, 2008

                  One culture had the sauna, the other had the sweat lodge.

                  One group found multiple uses for cedar, the other used birch. In the late
                  1800s, both the immigrant Finnish population and the resident Ojibwe people
                  of northern Minnesota had strong storytelling traditions, and both put
                  great stock in communal living. Both cultures also faced persecution and
                  degradation.

                  So perhaps it was inevitable that the two groups would mingle, creating a
                  new population of “Finndians.”
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NatNews/message/47492

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                  • #24
                    Roma

                    Rainbow you are part Roma! Palatine- Alace (Some Pa. Dutch from the Palatine have Roma heritage)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ink View Post
                      Rainbow you are part Roma! Palatine- Alace (Some Pa. Dutch from the Palatine have Roma heritage)
                      What? I put in the other thread that I have some German (Alsace) on my paternal grandmothers side. And one person on my maternal grandmothers side named Frederick Fisher (wife was Ann McBride) from North Carolina circa 1800 who was of German descent but looked like Abe Lincoln in the photo I saw.
                      My fathers full sister can pass for dark Sicilian or part Indigenous American or something. Maybe my paternal grandfathers Czech side had some Roma (Gypsy). I do have a North India DNATribes match, but I match all of the Indo-European regions.

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                      • #26
                        Reviewing this thread reminds me of someone. My first boyfriends younger half sister was half Dominican on her fathers side. Her Dominican father was half Finnish and half Indigenous American. She didn't look 1/4 Indian. She was blonde like Alice in Wonderland. She would probably get a very high Native American score.
                        And I remember him telling me that my hands were just like his sisters. He had very straight fingers. His sister and I have curved fingers.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ink View Post
                          Rainbow you are part Roma! Palatine- Alace (Some Pa. Dutch from the Palatine have Roma heritage)
                          The Dutch in my family tree is not PA Dutch. It is Holland Dutch. I do have a small amount of German. Roma in Germany are Sindhi. My DNATribes score for Sindhi, Pakistan is (0.06) 0.06. Not a match.

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                          • #28
                            re: Native American results

                            Hello, I am not understanding something. What test did you take that showed possible Native American ancestry? Won't the standard mtdna test show it? HOw about if that grandmother's father were the Indian? It wouldn't show then, would it? I know a paternal great grandmother was Indian, not only by family stories but I have a photo. How do I get it to show in a test? I had the mtdna test done-HVR2 results. Nothing Native American listed.
                            Ideas?

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                            • #29
                              re: Native American Indians results ?

                              Hello, I am not understanding something. What test did you take that showed possible Native American ancestry? Won't the standard mtdna test show it? HOw about if that grandmother's father were the Indian? It wouldn't show then, would it? I know a paternal great grandmother was Indian, not only by family stories but I have a photo. How do I get it to show in a test? I had the mtdna test done-HVR2 results. Nothing Native American listed.
                              Ideas?
                              Sorry about this. Can't figure out how to delete the duplicate...
                              Last edited by ; 10 January 2010, 09:59 PM. Reason: duplicated by accident

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by old digger View Post
                                Hello, I am not understanding something. What test did you take that showed possible Native American ancestry? Won't the standard mtdna test show it? HOw about if that grandmother's father were the Indian? It wouldn't show then, would it? I know a paternal great grandmother was Indian, not only by family stories but I have a photo. How do I get it to show in a test? I had the mtdna test done-HVR2 results. Nothing Native American listed.
                                Ideas?
                                The test I took that gave me 17% Native American was the AncestryByDna test.

                                MTDNA can only tell you about your mother's mother's mother's line, going back thousands of years along that line only. It won't tell you if any of your other ancestors were Native American.

                                The admixture test looks at what you've inherited from all of your great-grandparents.

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