Finland and Native results

[J. Fold]

I have a 10% Native result in ABDNA, 90% Euro
Last year had many high Dna Tribes Native American Panel matches- now all zeros
and second Euro Dna Tribes population is Finno- Ugrian (.93)
Mestizo is (.72)

I wonder what the relationship is between Finnish and Native resulsts, it's a chicken and egg situation I suppose, but I wonder if the High Finno results are not due to native ancestry and not the other way around. I have no know Finno-Ugrian ancestry, but a many Dutch colonists in various lines.

Any opinions ?

[rucksack]

I am 100% Finnish. I have high Mestizo [though all of my scores are in the tens, not hundreds] and low or no Finnish at DNA Tribes.

[tomcat]

...
I wonder what the relationship is between Finnish and Native resulsts, it's a chicken and egg situation I suppose, but I wonder if the High Finno results are not due to native ancestry and not the other way around. I have no know Finno-Ugrian ancestry, but a many Dutch colonists in various lines.

Any opinions ?

Most of the STR alelles have some incidence in most populations. And, insofar as Tribes's algorithm considers one's entire allele profile, one's overall pattern of alleles is more important than any single allele. Hence, one may by chance have a pattern of alleles more characterstic of a population with whom one has no direct ancestry.

As you seem to know, there was 17c Swedish colony in New Jersey, largely peopled by Finns, that was successful in trade with Natives and expansionary. It posed a threat to New Netherlands colony and was destroyed. So, a Finnish genealogy with deep roots in the New World could have a Native component.

BTW: In Omnipop I have found co-incidence of single alleles among Native and Finns and that Native Americans and Jews share some of the same repeats and also share some of the same allele pairs! On ENFSI I and some of my siblings pull high Finnish or Estonian scores.

[J. Fold]

Thank You Rucksack and Tomcat.

I noticed Dna Tribes has determined 9 % Native American Contribution to Finland-

I also recall our old friends at Dna Print explaining that Finns results had Native American percentages.
At this point do we consider Ancestry by Dna still a valid test ?
I know the company is no more.

I wonder if many Dutch people had Native American percentages in their results..because of colonies...

[PDHOTLEN]

Thank You Rucksack and Tomcat.

I noticed Dna Tribes has...

I wonder if many Dutch people had Native American percentages in their results..because of colonies...

Yeah, the Dutch were fur trading up the Hudson River, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were an occasional Indian princess in their family trees. Probably good for business.

[tomcat]

...
I noticed Dna Tribes has determined 9 % Native American Contribution to Finland-

I also recall our old friends at Dna Print explaining that Finns results had Native American percentages.
At this point do we consider Ancestry by Dna still a valid test ?
I know the company is no more.
...

Yes, DNAP showed an overlap between NA and IE scores - that some Euros pulled NA. I think the maximum was 6% or so. Hence DNAP agrees with DNAT on that matter. So a DNAT Mestizo score or a DNAP NA score could be used as proof of Europeaness and certain Euro scores could be proof of Native ancestry. Not very useful. Never knew how DNAP decided that some ambiguous markers should break one way or the other.

[rainbow]

I had already asked about this several times in various posts in different threads over the years. I've made over a thousand posts these last 3 years, so I don't know which threads to point to right now. I'll take a deep breath and start over in this thread.
My ancestry is 3/4 Northwest European and 1/4 Czechoslovakian. My mothers side is Northwest European (mainly Norman English, Jute English, Pict Scottish, Welsh, and with a smidgen of Alsace German and Swiss). My father is half Czechoslovakian and
half Colonial American (New Jersey) of Northwest European ancestry (Dutch, English, Scottish, French, and Alsace German).
My mom always said she thought I must be part Mongolian from my fathers Slavic side.
In 2006 I ordered the Euro 1.0 from DNAPrint because I had read that some Eastern European/Slavic people get 10% East Asian on their tests. I thought that being 1/4 Slavic I might have a quarter of that. I expected my result to be 100% European, or at most 02% to 03% East Asian and 98% to 97% European.
DNAPrint told me that in the preliminary test, or AncestryByDna 2.5, I am 17% N a t i v e A m e r i c a n and 83% European. And they said that I didn't qualify for the Euro test. People who get a Native American ancestry score under 15% can have the Euro, but I was over that. They refunded the difference (the Euro 1.0 cost more than the ABD 2.5) and they sent me the book I ordered when I ordered the Euro 1.0.
In emails with them I was told that Native American markers overlap with Central Asian markers. They said that these markers (people with those markers) traveled north and east from Central Asia and across the Bering land bridge to the Americas, but that some traveled south and west from Central Asia into Turkey and Syria and Italy and Greece and that general area, and that people from that area still retain a small amount of those ancient Central Asian markers.
So my markers could mean that I am Turkish/Syrian/Italian/Greek, or Native American.
My maternal grandmother was from North Carolina, and I thought that my 17% was from my mom. But she tested and has zero. She has since found some old family lines of ours in Virginia that go back to Rolfe & Lady Rebecca (a/k/a Pocahontas). But that wouldn't account for my 17%.
My 17% is from my father. Either his Slavic father had A LOT of Central Asian ancestry (and/or maybe Finno-Ugrian, who have these markers), or he wasn't my fathers father. Or my fathers mother, from an old colonial family in New Jersey, was either adopted and one biological parent was white and the other biological parent was a full-blooded Native American, or her New Jersey family has been mixed half white and half Amerindian (most likely Delaware Indian. a/k/a Lenape.) since colonial days but have always been regarded as white.

Now I know 17% would be high even for a Finn, but I am not Finn. A 100% Finn may get that score, but even if my Slavic paternal grandfather was of 100% Finno-Ugrian or Central Asian ancestry, I would not get that same high score. It would have to be one fourth of that, which would be around 6%.

But I am 17%. My mom is zero.

With DNA Tribes......I have had many updates and have had many wild results. Most of them changed with the next update. To this day I still match Syria. It is now my top match. I also match Turkey and Italy in my top 20. But yes I also match the mixed Native Americans in Minnesota, etc.
My global matches are motsly Latin American (mostly Brazil).
I match 12 world regions, including Mestizo and Finno-Ugrian.


Edit: And in emails with DNATribes I was told that my profile is consistent with approximately 1/8 Native American ancestry, with 1/8 to 1/4 not excluded. That was/is based on their current database and/or algorithm, I think. Before I was told 1/8 to 1/4.
Sometimes I match Athabaskan (Alaskan), and sometimes I don't.

[rainbow]

To make it short, yes, I have colonial Dutch ancestry. The Dutch ancestry is on my fathers side.
And, yes, I have a Native American autosomal dna result, but there isn't any Native American ancestry in my fathers paper trail/family history.
It's a complete mystery.

[J. Fold]

Yes, DNAP showed an overlap between NA and IE scores - that some Euros pulled NA. I think the maximum was 6% or so. Hence DNAP agrees with DNAT on that matter. So a DNAT Mestizo score or a DNAP NA score could be used as proof of Europeaness and certain Euro scores could be proof of Native ancestry. Not very useful. Never knew how DNAP decided that some ambiguous markers should break one way or the other.

I remember DNAP was certain that NA results were NA results, explaining that some Europeans did have NA ancestry, possibly from Pre-migration ancestral NA peoples who might have gone West to Europe.
I personaly feel that many colonial era NAs were brought to Europe for various reasons, a few as guests, but I assume most as domestic servants, slaves, workers, intermarriage and sexual servitude. Maybe a don't ask, don't tell type of social norm existed, as history does not venture much into this realm. To begin, just looking to Spain, from the late 1500s on, their is proof that many Filipinos ended up in Mexico and many Native Mexicans ended up in the Philippines.
Why would this sort of pattern of human trafficking not have continued to Europe ?
Also, centuries of Basque, Viking and colonial presence in North America and accounts such as the case of hundreds of Lenapes taken to Curacao to work in the sugar plantations by the Dutch is the 1600's paints a picture of slavery taking various forms.

[tomcat]

I remember DNAP was certain that NA results were NA results, explaining that some Europeans did have NA ancestry, possibly from Pre-migration ancestral NA peoples who might have gone West to Europe.
I personaly feel that many colonial era NAs were brought to Europe for various reasons...

All that may be so but one would also have to posit Natives were brought in vast numbers and widely dsitributed in Europe in order to have "Native genetics" appear in diverse European populations. Wouldn't those "Native genetics" be more likely due to the preservation in certain European populations of genetics characteristic of populations precursor to Beringians and Europeans, or a case of parallel mutation?

There are several notorious cases of well-pegreed Europeans who got Native scores from DNAP. Some occassionaly visit this forum.

[J. Fold]

I agree, but what was the population of western Europe in the 1600's?
Maybe a just few hundred people could change the genetic makeup...

[tomcat]

With the demise of the AbDNA website I am unable to find a citation but I recall DNAP found "Native genetics" in populations other than those Europeans who colonized the Americas - Spanish, Portuguese, English, French, and to a lesser extent the Dutch, Russian and Swedish/Finnish.

[J. Fold]

With the demise of the AbDNA website I am unable to find a citation but I recall DNAP found "Native genetics" in populations other than those Europeans who colonized the Americas - Spanish, Portuguese, English, French, and to a lesser extent the Dutch, Russian and Swedish/Finnish.

Right, I can see how one would conclude the NA results were a combinaton of both very ancient and colonial...

however maybe we should consider if this scenario is possible... that within five hundred years- NA DNA could have dissipated throughout a good portion of Europe - even to those countries who were not directly involved in colonies-?

Also- colonies were also occupied with nationals from other nations besides the official national colony- for example Manhattan during the Dutch era had people from many parts of Europe and even Brazil...

[tomcat]

...Also- colonies were also occupied with nationals from other nations besides the official national colony- for example Manhattan during the Dutch era had people from many parts of Europe and even Brazil...

This supposes people repatriated to countries of origin rather than staying-on in the Americas or moving back to the countries of their patrons. Obviously such back migration would be limited to people of higher socio-political and/or economic class (always a minority).

Moreover, at the present state of sampling, Native Y and Mt do not seem widespread in Europe, so one must further suppose those direct lines were extinguished while autosomal signals were preserved.

[rainbow]

With the demise of the AbDNA website I am unable to find a citation but I recall DNAP found "Native genetics" in populations other than those Europeans who colonized the Americas - Spanish, Portuguese, English, French, and to a lesser extent the Dutch, Russian and Swedish/Finnish.

I remember it. The European husband that they listed, with a Hispanic wife, and their 3 kids,.....he was Greek. He had 7% Native American ancestry, if I recall correctly, and he was 93% European. His hispanic wife was a mix of three categories. DNAPrint showed how each of their 3 children had varying amounts of SSA, EA, IE or E, and NA.

In ancient times, some people with Central Asian markers went south and west, while most seemed to go north and east and on to the Americas.