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  • Question On 12 Marker Matches

    Hello,

    My name is Erik and I am new to the whole subject of DNA genealogy. Therefore I had a few questions for anyone willing to help provide me with some sort of disambiguation.

    I recently tested (Y-chromosome) with the Genographic Project. I was informed that I belong to the (relatively common) Atlantic Modal Haplotype (R1b1b2). This was not surprising, considering my Northern Iberian (Asturian) heritage. However, upon joining this site and submitting my results to the Y-Search database, I came to learn that my 12 mutational markers can be measured against those of other individuals in the databases. Inquiring as to who my matches were, I learned (surprisingly) that the only individuals sharing my 12 markers were several Prussians, a Luxembourger and an Englishman. (My 11/12 matches were all British with the exception of one other Northern Iberian.) I found this somewhat surprising, as I wasn't expecting German matches to take precedence over those of closer/neighboring nationalities. Is there any significance in this at all? Based off of the broad match of only 12 markers and the sheer gulf that separates our peoples in distance and history, how back do you assume that we share a common ancestor? Based upon the genetic distance, could it be further back than several thousand years?

    I was also expecting a somewhat larger pool of matches, based on the fact that R1b1b2 is so common (including in Iberia). Is it common to have so few matches at such a broad level as 12 markers?

    I have been considering ordering an upgrade, but don't think the additional markers package will render any fruitful results, considering who my matches presently are. Therefore, do you think a Deep Clade test would be a better value (obviously not in determining matches, but learning more about my own haplotype)?

    I would greatly appreciate any help that can be provided on these questions.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Erik,

    Have you had your sample and results moved to Family Tree DNA? If not you should. Samples remaining in the Genographic Project will be destroyed. Those moved to FTDNA will be saved for 25 years. Is there a surname project for your surname? If there is have you joined it. There is no charge for either of these steps, but you must take the first one first.

    FTDNA will set up your personal website where you can see more information about your matches and there will be a group discount for some of the additional testing, such as additional markers.

    I'm a predicted R1b1b2 and I have 12 exact 12 marker matches and most of those were people I knew were in the fourth or fifth cousin range from me and from each other. I don't think having only a few 12 marker matches is a problem. I am the admin for two surname projects and I do have R1b1b2's who have over 100 matches so it can go either way. Additional markers will eliminate matches of those who don't share a relatively close kin. The MRCA could still be many generations removed.

    As for markers or Deep Clade, that depends on what you are looking for. If you are interested in the last several 100's of year I think markers is the best choice. If you are interested in 1,000's - 10,000's of years ago then Deep Clade would be the best choice. If you have the money it doesn't have to be an either or choice. You could do both!

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    • #3
      12 of 12 --------- 29 generations (95% probability that the most recent common ancestor was no longer than this number of generations)


      Here the link:
      http://www.familytreedna.com/faq-markers.aspx

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      • #4
        Thank you, Jim and "els854". I actually had moved my data over to Family Tree DNA and also over to Y Search. It was through those databases that I found the few matches I had.

        Currently, there are no surname projects going for my particular surname ("de Acu

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        • #5
          There is an Iberian Penninsular Geographic Project, and one for Spain.
          Last edited by rivergirl; 7 May 2009, 08:09 PM.

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          • #6
            For some reason, I am having difficulties responding in this thread.

            Comment


            • #7
              Let's try again.

              Thank you for the reply, Jim and "els854". I actually moved my data over to Family Tree DNA and Y-Search. It was through those databases that I was able to locate the few matches I had.

              Currently, there are no surname projects going for my particular surname, De Acuna -which is somewhat uncommon, but by no means exotic, in Iberia.

              Earlier, I decided to to dedicate some amount of time into studying my specific DYS values, in order to see if there was anything interesting to be found. From what I learned, I posses two rather rare DYS values (at least based on the sources I have checked the results against). The first is a 385a value of 10 -which has an overall distribution of about 3%. The next is a 439 value of 13 -which has an overall distribution of around 15%. I also posses a somewhat rare DYS value for 389-2 (which is 30) that has a distribution of just over 25%. In the R1b Project database I found only 7 individuals who shared my 385a value and only 2 who shared my DYS values from 393 to 388.

              So based upon the scarcity of these values (particularly of 385a), can any conclusions be drawn which could perhaps tell me anything about the distant ancestral relations I share with these Germanic individuals? Does its scarcity localize it to any specific area of Europe.

              As for the point you raised, els854, I can't locate on the page whether or not this 29 generation limitation extends to those with different surnames. Do you know if it does?

              Thanks again.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by rivergirl View Post
                There is an Iberian Penninsular Geographic Project, and one for Spain.
                Thank you for the info. I will see about joining those projects. Upon initial observation, I find no surname matches or close DNA matches. In the Family Tree DNA/Y-Search databases, however, I have located one other Iberian (from a neighboring northern region) that is a genetic distance of 1 from me. But no exact matches, other than the Germans, Luxembourger and Englishman.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Asturianu View Post
                  Thank you for the info. I will see about joining those projects. Upon initial observation, I find no surname matches or close DNA matches. In the Family Tree DNA/Y-Search databases, however, I have located one other Iberian (from a neighboring northern region) that is a genetic distance of 1 from me. But no exact matches, other than the Germans, Luxembourger and Englishman.
                  It may be that no one that your genetically related to has tested so far.

                  My brother tested abt 2 1/2 years ago and still has no matches in FTDNA, ysearch, Ancestry or SMGF. (Apart from our uncle who tested)
                  The family line is from England and is I1.
                  Though a 11/12 match shows up on his Ancestral origins page, from France
                  My great uncle from an Irish family, and SNP tested R1b M222, NW Irish Type, has only one 11/12 match.
                  2 other relatives, also from Irish families, have loads of matches at 12, 25 and 37.
                  All have 67 markers and SNP tested.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Check out this father and son so you'll understand why 12 markers is not the way to even think about anything:

                    http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...d=mare+enfield

                    Don't change any of the settings, just enter the "captcha" words and hit "comparative y DNA results".

                    Then, you look at the first 12 markers and tell us what you see.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rucksack View Post
                      Check out this father and son so you'll understand why 12 markers is not the way to even think about anything:

                      http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...d=mare+enfield

                      Don't change any of the settings, just enter the "captcha" words and hit "comparative y DNA results".

                      Then, you look at the first 12 markers and tell us what you see.
                      Oh god. Father and son would have had a 9/12 match. Makes them look like they have a common anchestor before Christ was born or so, eh?

                      Question is, how often does soemthing like this happen? Every 1 Million years? or is this common?

                      Edit: can it be that this is a case of adoption? he he he
                      ah no, they match too well on all the other markers.
                      Last edited by Daniel72; 9 May 2009, 02:58 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rucksack View Post
                        Check out this father and son so you'll understand why 12 markers is not the way to even think about anything:

                        http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...d=mare+enfield

                        Don't change any of the settings, just enter the "captcha" words and hit "comparative y DNA results".

                        Then, you look at the first 12 markers and tell us what you see.
                        Could this be the result of an error on the part of the geneticists, or was that what your point was?

                        Pretty crazy stuff.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Asturianu View Post
                          Could this be the result of an error on the part of the geneticists, or was that what your point was?

                          Pretty crazy stuff.
                          No his point was that father and son can differ at 12 markers. And match at 9/12 markers. But by testing more markers they came to be 65/67.

                          And also pointing out why testing 12 markers is quite useless when trying to find genetic relationships that are recent.

                          Upgrade to 37 markers or 67 markers.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                            And also pointing out why testing 12 markers is quite useless when trying to find genetic relationships that are recent.

                            Upgrade to 37 markers or 67 markers.
                            Yeah.
                            The FTDNA reseller I used (iGENEA) says, 12 Markers are just good enough to tell one the region one may be from (and even for their "Indigenous people" prediction, wich means what people you suposedly belonged at 900BC-900AD). But even in case of a 12/12 match it would be unlikely to be related because the mutations could just randomly happen to make you fit someone you dont belong to.

                            It would suposedly take a minimum of 25 matching markers to think about a real relationship instead of random.
                            Last edited by Daniel72; 9 May 2009, 10:59 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
                              Oh god. Father and son would have had a 9/12 match. Makes them look like they have a common anchestor before Christ was born or so, eh?

                              Question is, how often does soemthing like this happen? Every 1 Million years? or is this common?

                              Edit: can it be that this is a case of adoption? he he he
                              ah no, they match too well on all the other markers.

                              No, not 9/12. 10/12.

                              389-2 in both cases is 16, but for some reason (I forget why) it is reported as the sum of its value and 389-1.

                              So the only differences in the first 12 markers are at 439 (a very fast mutator) and 389-1.

                              And yes, that is an excellent illustration of why 12 markers are not enough, but I think anything less than 67 is insufficient, as well.

                              Since I became a project admin and began running my members' haplotypes in YSearch on a regular basis, I have discovered what I would once have regarded as "close" matches at 37 markers between men who belong to different subclades.

                              That is also a good reason why ALL R1b1b2s should order the Deep Clade-R test and its upgrades. It's essential to know to what subclade one belongs when evaluating a possible match.
                              Last edited by Stevo; 9 May 2009, 01:07 PM.

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