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Super Haplogroup IJK spread?

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    RE those oldtimers

    I've mentioned this article before, but I'll insert it into this thread too. If you can get ahold of the September/October 2007 issue of "ARCHAEOLOGY" magazine, there is a short, but interesting article titled: "The Dawn of Art." And it shows a few small carvings, etc. of artifacts found in a cave or two in SW Germany (Swabian Jura). It goes back to around 40,000 years ago. It would of course be interesting to find out what haplogroups those people belonged to. I'd guess the females were Hg U. I don't know how far along the subclades had evolved at that early date.

    Somewhere recently I saw where the Aurignacian Culture retreated into Spain at the height of the Ice Age, but were replaced in southern France by another culture; and both apparently existing at the same time. Maybe the Aurignacians were U5, and the other group were Hg H. (?)

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  • GregKiroKHR1bL1
    replied
    I will just make up an answer for this question on the final???

    I honestly do not know what to say (even though, I am very interested). I made up this list which might change next week . . .

    Parents (first three generations, Filiations [Rank in family], Agnomen [Personal nickname]);
    Family (first eight generations, Cognomen [Sept or family's nickname]);
    Relatives (first sixteen generations [Nomen: Clan or name of tribe]);
    Tribe (first thirty to forty generations [Praenomen: Given name from parents]);
    Language haplogroup (first 90 - 150 generations)
    Migration group (150 - 400 generations)
    Late Pleistocene (various early haplogroups [not understood in 2009, debatable results])
    Early Metal Age Hg (12 kya)
    Older Dryas Hg (15 kya)
    World Homo Dominance (18 -25 kya)
    Divergent Homo Groups (35-45 kya)
    The Homo sapiens' Journey (~60 kya)

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    Another candidate for early settlement of Europe is haplogroup G; much of the continent was swept clear of population in the Last Glacial Maxim, with re-settlement later from the refugia of southern Europe.

    The earliest "modern" culture of Europe was Aurignacian (30k to 40K), followed by Magdalenian (20K to 30K), followed by a Solutrean intrusion (? 18K). I don't recall offhand what came after that.

    Since these were fairly abrupt changes in technology for no identifiable ecological reason, one explanation to consider is new waves of population moving into Europe, each with its own mix of y-DNA haplogroups.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Johnserrat
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man View Post
    Ok here is what i think may have happened many thousands of years ago regarding the spread of the descendants of super haplogroup IJK. Around 40,000 years ago haplogroup IJK seperated into two distinct new haplogroups which were japplogroups IJ and K. Both originated in southwest Asia but most of the K people went up into central Asia where new mutations took place within the haplogroup. Now in cnetral Asia haplogroups L, M, NOP. S and T originated and ended up going there own seperate ways.

    NOP stayed in Asia for a while and then split into haplogroup NO and P. Then with new mutations haplogroup N ended up spreading into northeastern Europe, Siberia and some parts of East Asia. This happened initially around 15,000 years BP. The men ho became haplogroup O spread mainly into East Asia around this same time. Haplogroup P had already originated around 30,000 years BP in Asia and then split into haplogroup R in Q still in Asia. R went west mainly towards Europe while Q went east up into SIberia and on into the Americas around 15,000 years BP. Haplogroup R1 based on the latest dating methods of T. Karefet et al. is estimated to be around 18,500 BP. This still gives some time I think for a late Mesolithic appearance of haplogroup R1 and it's descendants R1a and R1b in Europe but as many think on here and I think to now it may ahve come much later to Europe during the Neolithic or later with Indo-European speakers.

    Now while these haplogroups were up in parts of Asia their ''cousins'' who were in haplogroup IJ had stayed back in the Near East. These men were present in the old Paleolithic and Mesolithic cultures of the Near East and then on into Europe as well. The IJ men who went up into Europe during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic became haplogroup I eventually. There may have even been some haplogroup J men who made it to Europe prior to the Neolithic but I am unsure about this on the whole. The man who ahd the haplogroup I mutation probably lived around 25,000 to 30,000 years BP somewhere in Europe. The original haplogroup J man originated around 30,000 years BP in the Middle East most likely. Most stayed back int eh Middle East and eventually evolved into haplogroup J1 and J2. J2 probably originated around 15,000 years BP in the Near East and spread mainly during the Neolithic period but some could have possibly spread earlier into Europe. J1 originated probably around 10,000 years BP further to the south of J2 and spread out a bit later as well.

    So it seems that one of the most likely haplogroup candidates for the original Cro-Magnon type of people who lived in the Near East and Europe was haplogroup IJ. This haplogroup and it's descendant haplogroup I and J were pre-Indoo-European speakers of languages that were wiped out later on mainly by Indo-European and Semitic speakers in their respective regions. The people who descend from haplogroup K represent another ancient Asian type of population that also ended up spreading west towards Europe later on.
    The cro-magnon are believed to have been in Europe 40,000 years ago. Even haplogroup IJ (which has never been actually found) is likely not old enough to have formed part of the cro-magnon population. Certainly, based on Karafet, I* is definitely not old enough. Haplogroup I* has never been found in any living person either and we can only guess that I* entered Europe before subdividing much later. Further, there is no evidence at all of subclades of I* ever speaking non-IE languages.

    The reality is that cro-magnon Y lines may be extinct or they could be constituted of F* or any subclades of F that were around 40,000 years ago.

    John

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio View Post
    With the latest estimates of R, your point seems reasonable, haplogroup I looks like the most ancient surviving lineage in Europe.

    One issue with I is that its estimates are a little too young for Cro Magnon (I think they may go back to 35-40K years ago in Europe). Also, U5, the supposed oldest lineage in Europe, doesn't show any origin in the Middle East.

    Anyway, this goes back to the old debate on whether humans entered Europe from the Middle East/mediterranean, or from the steppes of central Asia. The old idea of R1/U5 had them come from the steppes, and I think there was a recent article discussing what seems to be the most ancient sign of modern humans in Europe - in Russia near Moskow. But there doesn't seem to be any candidate surviving Y if we move R1 to a much later time.

    cacio
    Yes I am thinking that haplogroup I is probably the most ancient Y haplogroup in Europe. It may have come a bit later than the first Cro Magnons as you point out though.

    I am interested int he case of mtDNA haplogroup U5 in Europe as well since my own haplogroup on this side is U5b2. Maybe U5 was among the first haplogroups to make it into Europe on the mtDNA side and the Y lines from these ancient peoples have now become extinct as they were wiped out by incoming populations and the original U5 women were then taken on as wives of the newcomers.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    With the latest estimates of R, your point seems reasonable, haplogroup I looks like the most ancient surviving lineage in Europe.

    One issue with I is that its estimates are a little too young for Cro Magnon (I think they may go back to 35-40K years ago in Europe). Also, U5, the supposed oldest lineage in Europe, doesn't show any origin in the Middle East.

    Anyway, this goes back to the old debate on whether humans entered Europe from the Middle East/mediterranean, or from the steppes of central Asia. The old idea of R1/U5 had them come from the steppes, and I think there was a recent article discussing what seems to be the most ancient sign of modern humans in Europe - in Russia near Moskow. But there doesn't seem to be any candidate surviving Y if we move R1 to a much later time.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • J Man
    started a topic Super Haplogroup IJK spread?

    Super Haplogroup IJK spread?

    Ok here is what i think may have happened many thousands of years ago regarding the spread of the descendants of super haplogroup IJK. Around 40,000 years ago haplogroup IJK seperated into two distinct new haplogroups which were japplogroups IJ and K. Both originated in southwest Asia but most of the K people went up into central Asia where new mutations took place within the haplogroup. Now in cnetral Asia haplogroups L, M, NOP. S and T originated and ended up going there own seperate ways.

    NOP stayed in Asia for a while and then split into haplogroup NO and P. Then with new mutations haplogroup N ended up spreading into northeastern Europe, Siberia and some parts of East Asia. This happened initially around 15,000 years BP. The men ho became haplogroup O spread mainly into East Asia around this same time. Haplogroup P had already originated around 30,000 years BP in Asia and then split into haplogroup R in Q still in Asia. R went west mainly towards Europe while Q went east up into SIberia and on into the Americas around 15,000 years BP. Haplogroup R1 based on the latest dating methods of T. Karefet et al. is estimated to be around 18,500 BP. This still gives some time I think for a late Mesolithic appearance of haplogroup R1 and it's descendants R1a and R1b in Europe but as many think on here and I think to now it may ahve come much later to Europe during the Neolithic or later with Indo-European speakers.

    Now while these haplogroups were up in parts of Asia their ''cousins'' who were in haplogroup IJ had stayed back in the Near East. These men were present in the old Paleolithic and Mesolithic cultures of the Near East and then on into Europe as well. The IJ men who went up into Europe during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic became haplogroup I eventually. There may have even been some haplogroup J men who made it to Europe prior to the Neolithic but I am unsure about this on the whole. The man who ahd the haplogroup I mutation probably lived around 25,000 to 30,000 years BP somewhere in Europe. The original haplogroup J man originated around 30,000 years BP in the Middle East most likely. Most stayed back int eh Middle East and eventually evolved into haplogroup J1 and J2. J2 probably originated around 15,000 years BP in the Near East and spread mainly during the Neolithic period but some could have possibly spread earlier into Europe. J1 originated probably around 10,000 years BP further to the south of J2 and spread out a bit later as well.

    So it seems that one of the most likely haplogroup candidates for the original Cro-Magnon type of people who lived in the Near East and Europe was haplogroup IJ. This haplogroup and it's descendant haplogroup I and J were pre-Indoo-European speakers of languages that were wiped out later on mainly by Indo-European and Semitic speakers in their respective regions. The people who descend from haplogroup K represent another ancient Asian type of population that also ended up spreading west towards Europe later on.
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