Mutations at DYS 392

[Clare]

Hiya,

I'm not sure if I am asking a really stupid question here, but I thought I'd ask anyway!

I have compared my 12 marker results with those of people with the same surname and noticed that the only mutation I have that at least one other person doesn't is at DYS392 (mine is 12 rather than 13). I have read that this is unusual for the R1b Haplogroup and was wondering if this suggests that there is less chance of a recent relationship? I understand that this isn't in the fast mutating group, but does the fact that it is a 12 indicate anything further?

I did order the 37 marker test, but don't have the rest of the results as yet, so I guess they will tell me more.

Also, when I say I have checked the results with people of the same surname, it isn't actually the same surname, but the name that I THINK should have been my father's surname if he was not "adopted". What I was attempting to do with the test was to confirm if we were on the right track. Since there are matches that are just 1 step away, has this confirmed to a certain extent that we are on the right track, or do I need a match after I receive the results for the extra markers?

I hope that all makes sense.

[A.Hunt]

Hi

I like to add since you are looking for match of a possible "adopted" surname. It is important to get some sort of paper trail to back it up. A mutation can happen at anytime and also to add that since you are looking for a possible match without knowing true surname I hold off on doing anything until you get the rest of your results. There can be a lot of different between matching someone at 12 marker.

Example I ahve is 110 matches at 12 marker and 35 matches 25 marker. But only one match at 37 marker. This one match is my own father. so be patience. I was very excited when I started getting result. The oldest person with my pedigree appear to have taken his mother surname. Currently I am at 32/37 with closest match w/different surname. It not close enough match for me to start calling folks cousin. =p

[Clare]

Hiya

Thanks for replying. I have tried the paper trail stuff, been going on for 15 years now, and to be honest there is not a lot else that we can do on that front. His mother named the man supposed to be my dad's father when he was born, but that is all. The question was if she was lying or not as we don't know who she is either! Of course we will continue to do all we can.

BTW I don't know if it makes any difference but as far as matches from the 12 markers go I do only have 1 in total... I guess I will see how it goes with the rest of the results then. Fingers crossed!

[john sloan]

Dys392 = 12

Hi Clare

I am most interested in discussing this subject with you because I also have that peculiar DYS392 = 12. As you know, this is extremely unusual for a R1b (approx. 1 in 100 as far as I can see). I have only one known 12/12 marker match and he has a different surname from me.

It could be that "matches which are only one step away" are not all that relevant to you - for example if all your other 11 markers are the "bog standard" values for R1b and the 11/12 matches differ from yours only in that they have DYS392 = 13 you may not have any close relationship with them as they are likely to comprise the main body of R1b itself (and hence there will be rather a lot of them).

I hope we can share information on this.

Regards,
John (in Belfast)

[TSBinLV]

Clare,

I was just wondering, did you make sure that you "unchecked" the option on your FTDNA personal page that limits matches that are displayed to those in your project? I made this mistake in the beginning. After "unchecking" this option, I had *many* more matches.

Also, are you taking advantage of YSearch.org?

I am in a similar boat as you, in that my ancestor was adopted, and I am trying to figure out the surname of his biological father. Good luck to you...

[Clare]

Hi John,

I think I get what you are saying about the 1 step away. (My results are below if you are interested). I guess the rest of the results will tell me much more, but I do like to learn as much about them as I go along, so looking at possibilities is useful to me from an educational point of view at least

TSBinLV - Thanks, I have uploaded and looked at the Y-Search site now, there I have 1 exact match and 31 1 step matches. Yes I totally missed the option about restricting to the surname project! Thank you for that.

I also received my dad's HVR1 results yesterday, from my own calculations I think he is in haplogroup T or T1 (one mutation short of T1) I have a message saying that FTDNA have not been able to assign a haplogroup as yet, I kind of hope that means the results are unusual and that a match may be more meaningful? (Currently no matches - even on Mitosearch). I assume the T grouping would match the fact that my dad was born in Ireland though?


393 -13
390 -24
19 - 14
391 -10
385a -11
385b - 14
426 - 12
388 - 12
439 - 13
389-1 - 13
392 - 12
389-2 - 29

[john sloan]

sequences

Hi Clare
Many thanks for the info. on your sequence. Unfortunately it's substantially different from mine.
Actually, as well as the unusual value for DYS392 your dad has values for DYS391 and 439 which, whilst not unusual, are not the modal R1b values for those markers. That may prove helpful in the long run when (hopefully a lot) more Y-sequences are available for comparison.
On mtDNA, the defining changes for haplogroup T ("Tara") are at 126 and 294. Unfortunately a haplogroup such as T only really places the person as (likely) of European maternal line origin and isn't usually a lot of help in narrowing it down to a country.
From another Taran (but T2),
Regards,
John

[T E Peterman]

I read at another website that if the DYS392 count is 14 in a R1b (Atlantic Modal haplotype) results, it implies recent Irish origin. Does anyone have any insight into this? Or is it an old theory that has been disregarded? If the theory is valid, would the Dalriada (aka Highland Scots) be included as being of recent Irish origin. Another authentically Irish line (Coffey) has a DYS392 count of 13, so I don't think anyone could say that all (or even most) Irish lines have a DYS392 count of 14.

[john sloan]

Dys392 = 14

I'm not familiar with that theory but I am interested in the geographical origins of DYS392 = 14 in R1bs for the simple reason that the main group in our Sloan surname project have this value which I understand is found in less than 10% of R1bs.
It's just co-incidence but I have recently corresponded with two people (via the OA forum) who share this value and who, like the Sloans, are of possible Scots or "Ulster Scots" ("Scots Irish") origin.
yhrd.org shows a spread of this value across Europe with 2 out of 152 in their Irish sample having DYS392 = 14 (as well as the AMH values for DYS19,390,391 and 393) whereas 33 out of 152 in their Irish sample have DYS392 = 13 plus the other four AMH values that one can enter on their search (they don't do DYS388). Unfortunately, as we know, yhrd.org notoriously has no Scottish data.
Personally I think we're going to need an awful lot more data before any strong geographical patterns become apparent regarding sub-sets of R1b.

[T E Peterman]

I picked up on the idea of DYS 392 count of 14 implying Irish from the Campbell surname project website. This might be erroneous. I wonder how many non-Irish R1bs have this??

Timothy Peterman
Kansas City, MO

[ikennedy]

I am a Scottish Kennedy and have 392 = 15 so this discussion is very interesting to me - 15 is a lot more rare even than 14. The only 12 marker match I have is from Ireland. I have more near matches in Ireland than Scotland, up to a ratio of 2-3:1. Here's the rub, though; how far back does everyone's 'origin' go and what did those who put 'Ireland' mean - in genetic and genealogical terms the difference between coming from the north and south of the island is huge. If you are from the north and your ancestry is more recent than 1600 you may well have come over from Scotland with the planters (and, further back, they may have come from Ireland anyway etc). In other words the fact that I have more REO matches putting 'Ireland' rather than 'Scotland' doesn't mean I come from Ireland. It might just mean there are a lot of plantation people in the database. It is very frustrating having this uncertainty.

Today I found out that my gggf died on passage from Belfast to Glasgow where he lived, he was washed up dead on the shore at Prestwick. I know of no connection he had to Ireland. Take a look at the map, it is not far. Who knows or will ever know all the human traffic between Scotland and Ireland.

Ian Kennedy

[john sloan]

If one searches on yhrd.org for DYS = 14 in combination with AMH values for DYS19, 390, 391 and 393 (i.e. "typical" R1b values) one finds 122 "matches" 85 of which are in Europe and 2 of which are in "Ireland" i.e. 120 out of 122 are NOT in "Ireland".

Bonne chance!

John,
N.I.

[john sloan]

Scots/Irish

Ian

I agree wholeheartedly with your Scots/Irish assessment.

You may be interested to know that a significant number (1756) of Kennedys signed the Ulster Covenant in 1912. It is likely that most (if not all) of these Kennedys are of Ulster Scots (Scots Irish) origin.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/ulstercovenant/index.html

All the best,
John