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looking for M-167/SRY2627 percentages in Tunisia

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  • looking for M-167/SRY2627 percentages in Tunisia

    Anybody know where I can get my grubby fingers on the data about how much of SRY2627 is found in Tunisia? It seems like there's a fairly amount, perhaps reaching past 20% which is fairly significant for this subclade. I'm not sure how to explain SRY2627 being in Tunisia in such "large" numbers. What could this be attributed to? I have a couple of theories as follows:

    1. Sidling Vandals.
    2. Iberian or Celtiberian Mercenaries for the Carthaginians.
    3. Atlantic-Mediterranean Trade Exchange Network with Carthage at axis.
    4. Catalan mariner merchants.
    5. Knights Templars, spread of Christianity, or older Reconquista events.

    I'm more for theory #3 seeing as how Carthage was the largest city in the world at some 500,000 people around its height of power and Rome was a podunk backwoods village in comparison. The trade was extensive with the mineral wealth of the Atlantic region from Belerion (Cornwall/Devon), to the Breton Peninsula, Galicia and Tartessos (Huelva). Carthage had control from the region of Huelva/Cadiz to the Ebro River and inherited this span of trade and control from its ancestral Phoenician forebearers. What kind of relations Phoenicians had with Tartessos I'm not exactly sure. It certainly seems as if Carthage had both Iberian enemies and allies in eastern Iberia.

    The other point of interest to me is noticeably SRY2627 is found highest in numbers where headwaters of major rivers immediately north and south of the Pyrenees begin. Valle De Aran (Garonne Basin-Ebro R Basin via Noguero Palleresa/Segre Rivers), Ter River-Tech R. Basins (Girona Pyrenees/Canigou), Liebana (Deva R. to Duero R. via Pisageuro R.), Pas Valley (Pas to Ebro R.), most seem to be connector points between one coastal river (Atlantic) to the other (Mediterranean). The Duero River reaches inland to the Iberian Mountains in the region of the Celtiberians nearest the Ebro R. It's a good sign that SRY2627 is Celtiberian or Lusone given the high frequency found around Porto, Portugal and then near Llieda Province of the Ilergetes with increasing frequency towards the Vall De Aran. A Celtiberian tribe known as Lusones were established nearest Llieda and supposedly moved towards the Lusitanian region and are related. I'm not 100% convinced as the numbers fade out in Valencia-Castellon and resurge in Murcia (Lorca to Cartagena). The numbers are about equal in the less populated Aragon region and the more populated Mallorca region. I'd be more convinced to say SRY2627 is Iberian as is more related to the Ilergetes which stretch from the Vall De Aran region or immediately south from Montgarri, Benasque Valley regions south of the Pyrenees. Ilergetes connect with the Mediterranean easily via Ebro River which was most likely navigable to the Ilergete territorial regions. Both the Celtiberians and Illergetes had control of the land axis trade routes across Northern Iberia from Cantabria, Northern Portugal/Southern Galicia, to the Pyrenees passing through Carfranc/Jaca, Vall De Aran, Cerdanya areas.

    Ilergetes were allies of Carthage at one time and then became enemies at another time, probably were most likely mercenaries. The Ilergetes are also mentioned as Celtiberias or at least Indibil the Ileregete Chief is mentioned by Polybius to be Celtiberian. The time of the Ilergetes and Celtiberians do not go too far from the best age estimate of SRY2627 around 1300 BCE to 800 BCE. Urnfield/Late Bronze Age to Iberian/Celtiberian Iron Age 500 BCE. The spread obviously must be tied into the Urnfield/Later Maritime Bell Beakers which eventually evolved into Celtiberians/Iberians as localized cultures of Iberia. Its a matter of debate if the Maritime Bell Beakers originated from Portugal or the Rhone/Rhine corridor.

    Seems like the SRY267 spread follows along the Garonne to SW England to Catalonia, especially along the central Pyrenees to the Ebro River terminus.
    Which could easily explain a trade exchange network between SW England and Carthage through the Pyrenees bypassing the Greek strongholds along the Gulf de Lions, the Tartessian/Celtic strongholds along the coastal route north of Cadiz. The Ilergetes and probably their predecessors were allies to Carthage before the change of heart during the Roman conquest from the region of Tarragona, Sanguntum and Tortosa. This could explain that tin sought by the Carthaginians/Phoenicians written about by the Greeks goes along way back before the Greeks arriving to Iberia.

    This could be a decent explanation as the frequency of M-167 being found highest along a line that follows from the mouth of the Ebro River to the Garonne River up northwards along the Bay of Biscay, Celtic Sea to SW Britain (Cornwall/Devon). Pushing southwards to Murcia/Cartagena to east towards Mallorca/Menorca (both islands like Ibiza were settled with peoples from Carthage). Therefore the Tunisian connection to SRY267 starts to make sense given where the Carthaginians settled and how far trade exchange networks went to supply Carthage with mineral wealth and finance its large development. Immensely incredible city with apartments, toilets, showers, and the most impressive seaport of the ancient world. Carthage's reach had to be far and wide in order to develop like it did. Iberian mercenaries, and merchants must have resided in Carthage or Utica. This may explain why SRY2627 seems to be found around Berber and J2 type haplogroups in the Pas Valley (connector point for the trade-exchange network from the Atlantic to Med Sea?) or is it attributed to a later event of reconquista since the time of the Franks, Visigoths, or Middle Ages??

    Arch

  • #2
    The Original Berbers..

    by some accounts were fair skinned and light haired. I can attest personally that there are MANY people in Tunis and Sfax (Carthage is a suburb of Tunis). Perhaps the connection can be made there.

    Your theories may be of the "all of the above" variety as we know that the mediterranean cultures are for the most point, all mixed with the same alchemy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Zaru View Post
      by some accounts were fair skinned and light haired. I can attest personally that there are MANY people in Tunis and Sfax (Carthage is a suburb of Tunis). Perhaps the connection can be made there.

      Your theories may be of the "all of the above" variety as we know that the mediterranean cultures are for the most point, all mixed with the same alchemy.

      At some point there has to be an origin of the first dude with SRY2627 in Tunisia. Though I agree with you there could have been persons with the same subclade arriving later. This seems to be the case for the persons found in the Girona region of Catalonia as their STRs are a few steps away from the modal STR which is found at some 48% in the Val D'Aran. This is what would seem to help identify later arrivals from the original group.

      With that said, Carthage was fairly large and seeing how they are derived from the Phoenicians who were in Iberia long before the establishment of Carthage, their ancestors were already settling in Iberia quite a long time ago. They already knew of the wealth around Tartessian lands with the mineral wealth of Western and Southern Iberia. We could very well see a Tartessian connection with the Phoenicians reaching far up towards the coastlines of ancient Ireland or Britain, including Galicia and Brittany too.

      Carthage already knowing what it had in the west after its severely and sorely defeat in losing Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica to Rome was that it just didn't suddenly stumble onto Iberia and invaded, they were already there. I think the only big change was the emphasis on land battle rather than sea battle engagements. Whatever the case, just like the expected J2 which is found in Tunisia at some 20% as expected indicating a ruler elite, M-167 is found less so but could indicate a tie to either mercenary forces or merchant fleets when Carthage was at its height and later connected to Cartegena in which we see in Murcia a slightly larger number of SRY2627.

      It's a shame that Rome destroyed the great libraries of Carthage, the history of one of the ancient world's most sophisticated cities was utterly and completely wiped away from the face of the earth. So all we're left with are biased accounts of Romans and Greeks with a superiority complex.

      Arch

      Comment


      • #4
        Tunisian R1b8 (M167)

        Arch: The only study of North African Y Chromosomes that I have come across is: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa, Barbara Arredi et al, 2004. This study only discusses the major lineages E3b2 and J*, which together make up two-thirds of male lineages in North Africa. Pie charts and a phylogeny tree are available for specific countries. For Tunisia one can approximately eyeball the following lineages off the pie chart: E3b2 - 35%, I - 35%, E3b*(xE3b2) - 15%, R1b8 - 8%, J2 - 5%, E3a - 2%.

        The paper can be downloaded at: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...9&blobtype=pdf

        Hope this info helps.
        Last edited by Kaiser; 22 April 2009, 09:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re my previous post. A clarification regarding nomenclature is in order. R1b8 (M167, SRY2627) is a pre-YCC 2003 denomination. As per YCC 2008, SRY2627 is now R1b1b2d whereas previously, under YCC 2003 it was R1b3f.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kaiser View Post
            Re my previous post. A clarification regarding nomenclature is in order. R1b8 (M167, SRY2627) is a pre-YCC 2003 denomination. As per YCC 2008, SRY2627 is now R1b1b2d whereas previously, under YCC 2003 it was R1b3f.
            Thanks for the paper. Yeah, I have been following the nomenclature changes for a while and have eaten the proverbial alphabet soup (enough to drive an insane man more insane). I didn't necessarily see R1b8 pointed out and the pie chart seemed to point out R1b in general (I'll look another look). It's very interesting you point out J2 at 5% and M-167 at 8%, not very large numbers but 8% is high for SRY2627 consider the only the Central Pyrenees reach any significant numbers. Quick breakdown of percentages:

            48% - Val d'Aran (Catalonia)
            22% - Girona (Catalonia)
            18% - Cerdanya (Catalonia)
            17% - Alt Urgell (Catalonia)
            ??% - Mallorca (Balearic Islands)
            ??% - Menorca (Balearic Islands)
            ??% - Lorca/Cartagena (Murcia)
            ??% - Ibiza (Balearic/Pine Islands)
            ??% - Liebana Valley (Cantabria)
            ??% - Pas Valley (Cantabria)
            13% - El Hierro (Canary Islands)
            13% - Jaca (Aragon)
            11% - Basque Country (Western Pryenees)
            7% - Oporto (Northern Portugal)
            7% - Valencia-Castellon
            ?% - Cornwall/Devon (Ancient Belerion)
            ?% - Brittany

            One thing I found interesting is how the Phoenicians used urns for their dead indicating cremation practices. I wonder if this is a cultural import from them during the Urnfield Culture 1300 BCE, rather than originating in Central Europe and it moved from Iberia northwards towards the central region of Europe. It just doesn't seem to make sense that a cremation practice would occur in an area where there's sufficient land to do mass burials (from an earlier period) or individual burials. Whereas Phoenicians did not build a massive land empire but rather city-states with more emphasis on the sea rather than land. It's a thought and probably could be tied into the later phases of the maritime bell beaker period. Where I see M-167, I see Berbers and J types in high numbers or in regions where they are rarely found but have a small concentration. I'm not sure if this should be chalked up to coincidence or not. But I'm thinking if M-167 has a percentage not much higher than J2 in Tunisia, this could be the result of Rome's doing Carthage in and virtually wiping out the whole city of its inhabitants, more mercenaries or fleeing Iberian mariner merchants would have survived than the elite few of J2 Carthaginians. Following Dr Spencer Wells in an episode on the Phoenician DNA in Carthage it was stated their percentages would be around less tha 20% of the whole population of the region today. Both M-167 and J2 fit that profile. The time frame fits well within the age range of M-167 (1300 BCE to approx 800 BCE), and its localization in eastern Iberian, the Balearic Islands and Canary Islands.

            Still baffled by the large numbers in the Val D'Aran and yet this subclade can be found throughout all of Western Europe in albeit small numbers but with a high degree of localization.

            Arch

            Comment


            • #7
              Arch: You will see R1b8 in the phylogenetic tree on the left of the pie charts in the previously mentioned paper. The corresponding colour is pink for the pie chart R1b8 slice, as well as the branches of R1, which includes R1b8 (M167).

              As for urn burial practices, I may add that at the late stage of Harappan Civilisation (Indus Valley), inhumation of the dead inside urns was a common practice. We are talking of the 1900BC time frame. I think it was a cultural practice....sort of, in the air; hard to say who picked it from whom.

              They pack them in urns today too.......and keep em on the mantlepiece.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kaiser View Post
                Arch: You will see R1b8 in the phylogenetic tree on the left of the pie charts in the previously mentioned paper. The corresponding colour is pink for the pie chart R1b8 slice, as well as the branches of R1, which includes R1b8 (M167).

                As for urn burial practices, I may add that at the late stage of Harappan Civilisation (Indus Valley), inhumation of the dead inside urns was a common practice. We are talking of the 1900BC time frame. I think it was a cultural practice....sort of, in the air; hard to say who picked it from whom.

                They pack them in urns today too.......and keep em on the mantlepiece.
                Yeah I asked my wife to spread my ashes rather than sticking em on the mantlepiece or on top of the toilet. The other option was to be fleshed and bones bleached and just lay me out in the backyard, but we have dogs LOL. I'm not particularly too fond of decaying flesh or the smell of it, and maybe opting for cremation brings me back to my ancestral roots.

                It would seem that cremation practices carried on even in the Stonehenge area during the time of the Bell Beakers or Late Bronze Age. So it would be either a shift in thinking that originated in the east and was immediately to be adopted far west as Britain in the LBA. The big question is: Why?

                Arch

                Comment


                • #9
                  For the 2009 I.S.O.G.G. tree, M167 / SRY2627 = R1b1b2a1a2c

                  http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Arch: As per 'Genome Research' 2008 chart, SRY 2627 denotes R1b1b2d. The attractive and colourful Phylogenetic tree is available for download at FTDNA:

                    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf-doc...netic-Tree.pdf

                    I wonder why ISOGG and Genome Research cannot agree on some of the tree branches?

                    PS: In one of my previous posts I mistakenly mentioned YCC 2008 instead of Genome Research 2008.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rucksack View Post
                      For the 2009 I.S.O.G.G. tree, M167 / SRY2627 = R1b1b2a1a2c

                      http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html
                      I refuse to give in to the lame naming conventions and everybody making the phylogenetic alphabet soup become a mish mash slop of Chef Boyardee and Mrs Campbell's soup mutant spawns. I like it simple and everybody knows for the most part what M-167 or SRY2627 stands for, all the other labels really are just useless and will change again next year. I'm sure R1b2a1a2c will be something like R1b2R1b3fHg22H103SRY2627R1b1b1b2dR1b12a1a2cSRYx01x within the next five years. We're wasting electrons and ink by following the ridiculous lack of naming standards. I believe in just keeping it all simple.

                      Thanks for the info anyway, I know you're trying to help, but I'm quite aware.

                      Arch

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kaiser View Post
                        Arch: As per 'Genome Research' 2008 chart, SRY 2627 denotes R1b1b2d. The attractive and colourful Phylogenetic tree is available for download at FTDNA:

                        http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf-doc...netic-Tree.pdf

                        I wonder why ISOGG and Genome Research cannot agree on some of the tree branches?

                        PS: In one of my previous posts I mistakenly mentioned YCC 2008 instead of Genome Research 2008.
                        I wished they would agree to stop confusing us and I really don't like having to second guess whether I mistyped something because the length of the labels are just simply too long and can be easily mistyped and misplaced. I find that equally frustrating for database input and how easy it is to just to get one letter or number wrong and mean something completely different or the results come out more jacked up than they are due to uncertainities. I don't think it's a smart move to confuse things and add to the inaccuracies.
                        It's one thing to be a fraction off, but light years off is just no bueno senor.

                        So I stick with the simple because simple is good. Good for the brain and the eyeballs. Plus I'm reducing my carbon footprint by not using as much ink or electrons typing out all those letters and numbers. I have enough hard time with SRY2627 and favor M-167, and both are much better than FTDNA's and ISOGG's jibberish.

                        Arch

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Agreed....

                          I have been chastised to an extent by some for bringing up this very point.

                          What needs to occur is for the community to come together as one and have a single overriding committee. A great example on how confusing this is, on the L21 Group Project there is a snippet quoting ISOGG's nomenclature for L21 on the homepage, but we use R1b1b2a15 in the actual Project. On Y Search, the used to (and still may) list both groups nomenclatures in their haplogroup listings.

                          Oy....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zaru View Post
                            I have been chastised to an extent by some for bringing up this very point.

                            What needs to occur is for the community to come together as one and have a single overriding committee. A great example on how confusing this is, on the L21 Group Project there is a snippet quoting ISOGG's nomenclature for L21 on the homepage, but we use R1b1b2a15 in the actual Project. On Y Search, the used to (and still may) list both groups nomenclatures in their haplogroup listings.

                            Oy....
                            I'm not surprised about getting chastised for not conforming to the ridiculous labeling. I really don't think we'll ever see a standardized format. So why not just stick with something that has worked all across the board regardless of how many numbers and letters everybody wants to apply to every SNP? I'm for a rebellion of numeric-alphabet soup SNP labeling; Viva La Resistance!

                            Arch

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