Ottoman Empire Sultans haplogroup J2

[T E Peterman]

I think the Norman analogy for Turkey is a good one. The DNA of Anatolia looks about like what one would expect in the land where Europe and the Middle East come together: plenty of J, a nice percentage of R, a similar percentage of E3b & a few others.

My guess is that authentic Turks form a thin veneer of maybe 10% or less of the Turkish population. The other 90% is what was there beforehand.

I think that telltale patrilineal groups to look for among the authentic Turks would be N and Q. There might be some O. I doubt there would be much C. The Genghis Khan expansion both in territory and descendants happened centuries after the Turks moved into Anatolia. The authentic Turks may have brought in some outliers in the R haplogroup (ie, R1b that is M269-), but these would be harder to pick out.

Timothy Peterman

[bob_chasm]

I am thinking that he must be a descendant then of Shehzade if he claims to be of Ottoman royal origin. Either that or the descendant of say Yussuf's concubines or something which then though would not make him a legitimate heir or descendant I believe. I hope he replies to em about this soon.

Very interesting to hear about your uncles as well. My maternal grandfather along with his brother was in WWII as well. They were J2s also as a few years ago we had my maternal grandfather take a Y-DNA test. My grandfather's brother was in Italy for a period during the war also.

Which country did you uncle become president of if you don't mind me asking?

I am not completely sure how it worked with the Ottomans, but usually the children of concubines inherit the same rights as the children of wives in Islam.

RE: Uncles

Let me clarify one was my mother's first cousin and married to my mom's sister ( making him my uncle). The other was his first cousin and also my grand mom's first cousin. They were both war buddies and treated each other like brothers. They were both officers in the 8th Army in WWII. I'd rather not say which country.

http://www.worldwartwobooks.com/product.php/4002/desert-rats-british-8th-army-in-north-africa-1941-43

[J Man]

According to the report, he had a son, named Prince Shehzade Mehmet Nizameddin Efendi who was

"Born 10 January 1909 in Beshiktash. Obviously never married. Died 21 March 1933 in Orsellina, Italy."

I wonder if the particpant claims to be the son of Prince Shehzade? Perhaps he married an Italian heart-throb and had children. However, they may have wanted to guard the children's paternal identity to protect them from being harmed in Italy/ keep Ataturk's young turks from wanting to hang them. I also dont know what Italy would be like for children of Muslim Ottoman rulers in the 20th c.. In any event, it will be interesting to read what he has to say.

ps. During WWII, I had two uncles who were taken POW by the Italians. After the war, one of them almost ended up marrying an Italian girl and staying in Italy. The other one came back and ended up becoming a President of a Muslim country, several years later. These were maternal uncles, so cannot say if they were J2 or not.

I am thinking that he must be a descendant then of Shehzade if he claims to be of Ottoman royal origin. Either that or the descendant of say Yussuf's concubines or something which then though would not make him a legitimate heir or descendant I believe. I hope he replies to em about this soon.

Very interesting to hear about your uncles as well. My maternal grandfather along with his brother was in WWII as well. They were J2s also as a few years ago we had my maternal grandfather take a Y-DNA test. My grandfather's brother was in Italy for a period during the war also.

Which country did you uncle become president of if you don't mind me asking?

[bob_chasm]

I sent an email to the guy on ysearch who claims to be a descendant of the Ottoman Sultans. I did correspond with him before on this topic back near the end of last summer. He certainly does claim descent from the Ottoman Sultans.

I hope he responds to em this time though with evidence of who he descends from through Yussuf Izzeddin. I don't know if Yussuf's son had any sons or not?

According to the report, he had a son, named Prince Shehzade Mehmet Nizameddin Efendi who was

"Born 10 January 1909 in Beshiktash. Obviously never married. Died 21 March 1933 in Orsellina, Italy."

I wonder if the particpant claims to be the son of Prince Shehzade? Perhaps he married an Italian heart-throb and had children. However, they may have wanted to guard the children's paternal identity to protect them from being harmed in Italy/ keep Ataturk's young turks from wanting to hang them. I also dont know what Italy would be like for children of Muslim Ottoman rulers in the 20th c.. In any event, it will be interesting to read what he has to say.

ps. During WWII, I had two uncles who were taken POW by the Italians. After the war, one of them almost ended up marrying an Italian girl and staying in Italy. The other one came back and ended up becoming a President of a Muslim country, several years later. These were maternal uncles, so cannot say if they were J2 or not.

[J Man]

I sent an email to the guy on ysearch who claims to be a descendant of the Ottoman Sultans. I did correspond with him before on this topic back near the end of last summer. He certainly does claim descent from the Ottoman Sultans.

I hope he responds to em this time though with evidence of who he descends from through Yussuf Izzeddin. I don't know if Yussuf's son had any sons or not?

[josh w.]

My understanding is that the Turks originally came from from Mongolia. See 'Celestial Turks'. The area of Turkey was inhabited by many peoples, e.g. Lydians, Hittites before the Turks came. As has been noted, the main haplogroups of the area seem typical of the northern Middle East with a limited contribution from further east.

[MMaddi]

Looking at haplogroups in modern Turkey, I wonder if the Turks were not some tribe that inhabited Anatolia once, but was forced to flea the Roman Empire. Living on the outskirts of the Roman Empire, in Central Asia, perhaps they waited for the day Rome became weak and expelled them.

As Kaiser rightly pointed out there is very little Q and C in Turkey:

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

So the Turkish invaders were clearly not the Q and C haplogroup Mongols we might associate with the term.

As far as I know, there's little doubt that the tribes who established the Ottoman Empire in Turkey were not native to Turkey. They were from a nomadic tribe, the Oghuz Turks, from Central Asia, near the Aral Sea. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks ) According to an article on Wikipedia - at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Ottoman_Empire - they were the founders of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't see any reference to the Mongols in either of these articles. The Mongols were farther to the east, at the northern and western edges of China.

It is interesting that J2 is the haplogroup with the highest percentage of men in Turkey. It would seem to indicate that the Turkic tribes which ruled the Ottoman Empire did not replace the native population of Turkey, perhaps in the same way the Normans ruled the lands they conquered in the British Isles and Sicily/southern Italy.

It is curious that this supposed descendant of the Ottoman rulers is J2. I would think Turkic Central Asian tribes would be more likely to carry some sort of R haplogroup, whether R1a or R1b. Does anyone know of a study which gives the haplogroup percentages for Turkic tribes around the Aral Sea?

[bob_chasm]

Prejudices die hard

My understanding has always been that the Turks from Central Asia began settling in the Byzantine Empire region a little over 1,000 years ago and eventually toppled the Byzantine Empire & replaced it with their own.

The pre-Turkish population of Anatolia was Greek speaking. But there were a number of interesting enclaves, such as the Celts of Galatia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of people descended from the Hittite Empire -the founder effect would suggest so.

Anatolia was the home of the earliest towns to ever appear in western Eurasia (& possibly the world), as well as an early homeland for agriculture; the area has been somewhat civilized for the last 10,000 years.

The odd thing about the people of Anatolia is how rapidly they have assumed the identity of whoever is in power, whether it be the Greeks or the Turks; in either case, I doubt that authentic Greeks or Turks ever constituted more than 10 or 20% of the population.

Timothy Peterman

Looking at haplogroups in modern Turkey, I wonder if the Turks were not some tribe that inhabited Anatolia once, but was forced to flea the Roman Empire. Living on the outskirts of the Roman Empire, in Central Asia, perhaps they waited for the day Rome became weak and expelled them.

As Kaiser rightly pointed out there is very little Q and C in Turkey:

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

So the Turkish invaders were clearly not the Q and C haplogroup Mongols we might associate with the term.

[J Man]

Does not seem like he has any living male descendants. So where did the DNA come from?

http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/222158.html

Hmm that is a good point Bob. I may just email this guy and ask how he can trace his descent back to Yusuf Izzeddin.

[T E Peterman]

My understanding has always been that the Turks from Central Asia began settling in the Byzantine Empire region a little over 1,000 years ago and eventually toppled the Byzantine Empire & replaced it with their own.

The pre-Turkish population of Anatolia was Greek speaking. But there were a number of interesting enclaves, such as the Celts of Galatia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of people descended from the Hittite Empire -the founder effect would suggest so.

Anatolia was the home of the earliest towns to ever appear in western Eurasia (& possibly the world), as well as an early homeland for agriculture; the area has been somewhat civilized for the last 10,000 years.

The odd thing about the people of Anatolia is how rapidly they have assumed the identity of whoever is in power, whether it be the Greeks or the Turks; in either case, I doubt that authentic Greeks or Turks ever constituted more than 10 or 20% of the population.

Timothy Peterman

[bob_chasm]

Source of DNA?

Does not seem like he has any living male descendants. So where did the DNA come from?

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/222158.html

[bob_chasm]

The Sultans of the Ottoman Empire belonged to haplogroup J2. This has been deduced by the testing of one of the descendants of H.I.H. Prince Yusuf Izzedidin. Here is the ysearch id 94A9M. This haplotype looks like it probably belongs to J2a M410 as well.

When it comes to all of the people who have turned out to be haplogroup J2 this example is probably the most famous one. The only other famous haplogroup J2 person I know of so far is Matt Lauer. The Ottoman Sultans certainly did command a pretty large and powerful Empire. On the whole they were good military commanders and tacticians as well.

He is 3 micro sat distance from me on 12 markers.

1 @ DYS 385b-385a
1 @ DYS 393
1 @ DYS 388

[J Man]

I was talking about an origin in Central Asia because that's where the Turkic people come from, and often, dominant elites keep their male lineages and mix with local women. But from what you say, these Turkic tribes had been in Anatolia for a while. Plus J2 is present in Central Asia, as you point out.

Of course, there is also the possiblity that the person is not a biological descendant of the line - or that the line had a non paternity event at some point (unlikely, perhaps, but possible). It would be nice to have additional members of the lineage.

cacio

Yes I thought about the non paternity event also but I agree that is probably very unlikely. This lineage seems to be pretty intact. I do agree though that it would be nice to have additional members of the lineage tested.

[cacio]

I was talking about an origin in Central Asia because that's where the Turkic people come from, and often, dominant elites keep their male lineages and mix with local women. But from what you say, these Turkic tribes had been in Anatolia for a while. Plus J2 is present in Central Asia, as you point out.

Of course, there is also the possiblity that the person is not a biological descendant of the line - or that the line had a non paternity event at some point (unlikely, perhaps, but possible). It would be nice to have additional members of the lineage.

cacio

[J Man]

I quote from National Geographic, Nov 1987, 'Suleyman the Magnificent':

"We pick up Suleyman's ancestors on history's radarscope in the tenth century, deep in the heart of Eurasia. The dust devils dancing on the distant steppes of Turkestan grows into a cyclone as it swirls through Iran and Iraq and bursts on Byzantine Anatolia in the late 11th century."

The above quote implies that the ancestors of the Ottomans originated from Turkestan (not to be confused with Turkmenistan), a vast region covering present day Kyrgyzistan, Kazakhstan and western portions of Xinjiang Province of China. One wonders if these lands harboured Haplogroup J2?

Nonetheless, J2 is Turkey's largest Y Haplogroup, as can be gleaned from the paper, Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

The furthest back that I could find on the direct paternal line ancestors of the Ottoman Sultans was back to Kutalmish who lived in the 12th century. The Ottomans were leaders of the Oghuz Turks who were nomads in Anatolia at the time.

As I mentioned in my previous post most likely the Ottoman J2 line originated in Anatolia and has always been there. They may have been assimilated into the Oghuz Turkish tribe when they came into Anatolia from Central Asia or maybe they came directly from Central Asia as there is also J2 found there.