Ottoman Empire Sultans haplogroup J2

[J Man]

The Sultans of the Ottoman Empire belonged to haplogroup J2. This has been deduced by the testing of one of the descendants of H.I.H. Prince Yusuf Izzedidin. Here is the ysearch id 94A9M. This haplotype looks like it probably belongs to J2a M410 as well.

When it comes to all of the people who have turned out to be haplogroup J2 this example is probably the most famous one. The only other famous haplogroup J2 person I know of so far is Matt Lauer. The Ottoman Sultans certainly did command a pretty large and powerful Empire. On the whole they were good military commanders and tacticians as well.

[V.R.R]

[QUOTE=J Man;154422]The Sultans of the Ottoman Empire belonged to haplogroup J2. This has been deduced by the testing of one of the descendants of H.I.H. Prince Yusuf Izzedidin. Here is the ysearch id 94A9M. This haplotype looks like it probably belongs to J2a M410 as well.

This is quite interesting. According wikpedia this haplogroup be reasonably common in parts of Italy, Greece and Albania. The region which was the Ottoman Empire had already been "colonized" by the Greeks, Persians, Romans culminating in the Byzantine empire . It is a very large number of people coming from many different cultures and regions, with ethnic traits themselves. But what is the world region that did not receive current migratory? (unwanted by most of the locals)

[cacio]

Anatolia is supposed to be the area where J2 originated, so the first thought about a Turkish J2 is that it did originate there. Perhaps one would have expected a more eastern haplogroup, like Q or R1a or the like.

cacio

[Kaiser]

I quote from National Geographic, Nov 1987, 'Suleyman the Magnificent':

"We pick up Suleyman's ancestors on history's radarscope in the tenth century, deep in the heart of Eurasia. The dust devils dancing on the distant steppes of Turkestan grows into a cyclone as it swirls through Iran and Iraq and bursts on Byzantine Anatolia in the late 11th century."

The above quote implies that the ancestors of the Ottomans originated from Turkestan (not to be confused with Turkmenistan), a vast region covering present day Kyrgyzistan, Kazakhstan and western portions of Xinjiang Province of China. One wonders if these lands harboured Haplogroup J2?

Nonetheless, J2 is Turkey's largest Y Haplogroup, as can be gleaned from the paper, Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

[J Man]

Anatolia is supposed to be the area where J2 originated, so the first thought about a Turkish J2 is that it did originate there. Perhaps one would have expected a more eastern haplogroup, like Q or R1a or the like.

cacio

I am not completely sure but it would make the most sense to me that the Sultans paternal line did in fact originate in Anatolia and has always been there. The again I suppose that it could have originally come from Central Asia as well as there is a good amount of J2 there as well.

[J Man]

I quote from National Geographic, Nov 1987, 'Suleyman the Magnificent':

"We pick up Suleyman's ancestors on history's radarscope in the tenth century, deep in the heart of Eurasia. The dust devils dancing on the distant steppes of Turkestan grows into a cyclone as it swirls through Iran and Iraq and bursts on Byzantine Anatolia in the late 11th century."

The above quote implies that the ancestors of the Ottomans originated from Turkestan (not to be confused with Turkmenistan), a vast region covering present day Kyrgyzistan, Kazakhstan and western portions of Xinjiang Province of China. One wonders if these lands harboured Haplogroup J2?

Nonetheless, J2 is Turkey's largest Y Haplogroup, as can be gleaned from the paper, Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

The furthest back that I could find on the direct paternal line ancestors of the Ottoman Sultans was back to Kutalmish who lived in the 12th century. The Ottomans were leaders of the Oghuz Turks who were nomads in Anatolia at the time.

As I mentioned in my previous post most likely the Ottoman J2 line originated in Anatolia and has always been there. They may have been assimilated into the Oghuz Turkish tribe when they came into Anatolia from Central Asia or maybe they came directly from Central Asia as there is also J2 found there.

[cacio]

I was talking about an origin in Central Asia because that's where the Turkic people come from, and often, dominant elites keep their male lineages and mix with local women. But from what you say, these Turkic tribes had been in Anatolia for a while. Plus J2 is present in Central Asia, as you point out.

Of course, there is also the possiblity that the person is not a biological descendant of the line - or that the line had a non paternity event at some point (unlikely, perhaps, but possible). It would be nice to have additional members of the lineage.

cacio

[J Man]

I was talking about an origin in Central Asia because that's where the Turkic people come from, and often, dominant elites keep their male lineages and mix with local women. But from what you say, these Turkic tribes had been in Anatolia for a while. Plus J2 is present in Central Asia, as you point out.

Of course, there is also the possiblity that the person is not a biological descendant of the line - or that the line had a non paternity event at some point (unlikely, perhaps, but possible). It would be nice to have additional members of the lineage.

cacio

Yes I thought about the non paternity event also but I agree that is probably very unlikely. This lineage seems to be pretty intact. I do agree though that it would be nice to have additional members of the lineage tested.

[bob_chasm]

The Sultans of the Ottoman Empire belonged to haplogroup J2. This has been deduced by the testing of one of the descendants of H.I.H. Prince Yusuf Izzedidin. Here is the ysearch id 94A9M. This haplotype looks like it probably belongs to J2a M410 as well.

When it comes to all of the people who have turned out to be haplogroup J2 this example is probably the most famous one. The only other famous haplogroup J2 person I know of so far is Matt Lauer. The Ottoman Sultans certainly did command a pretty large and powerful Empire. On the whole they were good military commanders and tacticians as well.

He is 3 micro sat distance from me on 12 markers.

1 @ DYS 385b-385a
1 @ DYS 393
1 @ DYS 388

[bob_chasm]

Source of DNA?

Does not seem like he has any living male descendants. So where did the DNA come from?

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/222158.html

[T E Peterman]

My understanding has always been that the Turks from Central Asia began settling in the Byzantine Empire region a little over 1,000 years ago and eventually toppled the Byzantine Empire & replaced it with their own.

The pre-Turkish population of Anatolia was Greek speaking. But there were a number of interesting enclaves, such as the Celts of Galatia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of people descended from the Hittite Empire -the founder effect would suggest so.

Anatolia was the home of the earliest towns to ever appear in western Eurasia (& possibly the world), as well as an early homeland for agriculture; the area has been somewhat civilized for the last 10,000 years.

The odd thing about the people of Anatolia is how rapidly they have assumed the identity of whoever is in power, whether it be the Greeks or the Turks; in either case, I doubt that authentic Greeks or Turks ever constituted more than 10 or 20% of the population.

Timothy Peterman

[J Man]

Does not seem like he has any living male descendants. So where did the DNA come from?

http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/222158.html

Hmm that is a good point Bob. I may just email this guy and ask how he can trace his descent back to Yusuf Izzeddin.

[bob_chasm]

Prejudices die hard

My understanding has always been that the Turks from Central Asia began settling in the Byzantine Empire region a little over 1,000 years ago and eventually toppled the Byzantine Empire & replaced it with their own.

The pre-Turkish population of Anatolia was Greek speaking. But there were a number of interesting enclaves, such as the Celts of Galatia. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of people descended from the Hittite Empire -the founder effect would suggest so.

Anatolia was the home of the earliest towns to ever appear in western Eurasia (& possibly the world), as well as an early homeland for agriculture; the area has been somewhat civilized for the last 10,000 years.

The odd thing about the people of Anatolia is how rapidly they have assumed the identity of whoever is in power, whether it be the Greeks or the Turks; in either case, I doubt that authentic Greeks or Turks ever constituted more than 10 or 20% of the population.

Timothy Peterman

Looking at haplogroups in modern Turkey, I wonder if the Turks were not some tribe that inhabited Anatolia once, but was forced to flea the Roman Empire. Living on the outskirts of the Roman Empire, in Central Asia, perhaps they waited for the day Rome became weak and expelled them.

As Kaiser rightly pointed out there is very little Q and C in Turkey:

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

So the Turkish invaders were clearly not the Q and C haplogroup Mongols we might associate with the term.

[MMaddi]

Looking at haplogroups in modern Turkey, I wonder if the Turks were not some tribe that inhabited Anatolia once, but was forced to flea the Roman Empire. Living on the outskirts of the Roman Empire, in Central Asia, perhaps they waited for the day Rome became weak and expelled them.

As Kaiser rightly pointed out there is very little Q and C in Turkey:

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia, Cengiz Cinniog˘lu et al, 2003:

J2 - 24%; R1b3 - 15%; E3b - 11%; G - 11%; J1 - 9%; R1a - 7%; I - 5%; R2 - 1%.

So the Turkish invaders were clearly not the Q and C haplogroup Mongols we might associate with the term.

As far as I know, there's little doubt that the tribes who established the Ottoman Empire in Turkey were not native to Turkey. They were from a nomadic tribe, the Oghuz Turks, from Central Asia, near the Aral Sea. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks ) According to an article on Wikipedia - at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Ottoman_Empire - they were the founders of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't see any reference to the Mongols in either of these articles. The Mongols were farther to the east, at the northern and western edges of China.

It is interesting that J2 is the haplogroup with the highest percentage of men in Turkey. It would seem to indicate that the Turkic tribes which ruled the Ottoman Empire did not replace the native population of Turkey, perhaps in the same way the Normans ruled the lands they conquered in the British Isles and Sicily/southern Italy.

It is curious that this supposed descendant of the Ottoman rulers is J2. I would think Turkic Central Asian tribes would be more likely to carry some sort of R haplogroup, whether R1a or R1b. Does anyone know of a study which gives the haplogroup percentages for Turkic tribes around the Aral Sea?

[josh w.]

My understanding is that the Turks originally came from from Mongolia. See 'Celestial Turks'. The area of Turkey was inhabited by many peoples, e.g. Lydians, Hittites before the Turks came. As has been noted, the main haplogroups of the area seem typical of the northern Middle East with a limited contribution from further east.