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DNA suggests ancient Irish invasion of Scotland

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  • DNA suggests ancient Irish invasion of Scotland

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/s...ds/7976510.stm

  • #2
    Hi Hando I had heard the legend that Scotland was invaded many hundreds of years ago by people from Ireland. I always believf that was true. I didn't know that it was debated or in doubt or that it wasn't universally accepted. It's nice to know that it has been proven with dna.
    I remember reading in Bryan Sykes book on British Isles dna that there is a Korean sequence found in some Scottish fisherman. I know you are Korean with 2% European dna, according to your AncestryByDna test. What would be wonderful would be if scientists study that and find out where the traces of European (and Native American) come from exactly. Is it ancient Irish or Scottish or from Persia or India? etc.


    Elizabeth

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    • #3
      Dal Riata?

      Wasn't it the people of Dal Riata who migrated to Scotland and eventually created Scotland with the Picts? The Irish were referred to as "Scotti" by the Romans......

      My own Y-DNA matches a lot of Irish surnames (which makes me think that my own paternal ancestor may have actually been Ulster-Scots rather then Scottish) (and Scandinavian ones for that matter!). Although mine isn't R1b1b2.......

      ....I wonder if they have anything on the DNA of Gall-Gaidheal (Norse-Gaelic) surnames..... I would be interested to see results......

      Good luck everyone in your searches!
      Last edited by spruithean; 5 April 2009, 07:58 PM.

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      • #4
        I recall the story of the two Scottish fisherman -brother's in law or best friends, if I recall -both belonged to a Native American mtDNA group (either A, B, C, or D -I don't think Sykes divulged that).

        One had a great grandmother from Portugal, the other's came from Scandinavia. The Portugese lady had a great grandmother from Brazil, with a Native American matriline. The Scandinavian lady had a matriline that went across northern Russia & Siberia to Beringia. The Brazilian matriline also went to Beringia & there they met.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
          I recall the story of the two Scottish fisherman -brother's in law or best friends, if I recall -both belonged to a Native American mtDNA group (either A, B, C, or D -I don't think Sykes divulged that).

          One had a great grandmother from Portugal, the other's came from Scandinavia. The Portugese lady had a great grandmother from Brazil, with a Native American matriline. The Scandinavian lady had a matriline that went across northern Russia & Siberia to Beringia. The Brazilian matriline also went to Beringia & there they met.
          Wow that's amazing

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          • #6
            An invasion of Ireland to Scotland?

            If we had people entering england and spreading to Ireland initially, then would this suggest a back migration to Scotland?

            Or are we to believe that the Irish didn't come from the east to Ireland initially.?

            Would mean that Ireland was populated by Sea..and they then invaded/conquered the west coast of Scotland as the article suggests.

            i have some doubts.
            Last edited by M.O'Connor; 11 April 2009, 07:34 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by M.O'Connor View Post
              An invasion of Ireland to Scotland?

              If we had people entering england and spreading to Ireland initially, then would this suggest a back migration to Scotland?

              Or are we to believe that the Irish didn't come from the east to Ireland initially.?

              Would mean that Ireland was populated by Sea..and they then invaded/conquered the west coast of Scotland as the article suggests.

              i have some doubts.
              I watched the series on which that news article is based, and summarized the series here: http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=11153

              The series did not address the initial occupation of Ireland. The two Irish origin cases found in the Western Isles were "Y-DNA typical of Munster" and "the Y-DNA signature of Niall of the Nine Hostages," whatever types those are. If they are types thought to have arrived in Ireland from Scotland during the Mesolithic, then technically the movement from Ireland to the Western Isles was a back migration.

              Regards,
              Jim

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              • #8
                And in the series, I did not hear Dr. Wilson use the word "invasion." I don't know why the BBC news story used that word.

                Regards,
                Jim

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                • #9
                  scottish migrations

                  I cannot view the referenced video. However, my understanding of the Isles history is there were several "invasions". The first one came as the Ice Age was winding down and could have come from doggerland via Iberia or a straight iberian origin. TMRCA modal analysis suggests that Iberian R1b DNA is the oldest. My best guess is that next came the Picts, both on the east coast of scotland and from the east coast of Ireland to Scotland. They spoke a language similar to the Albans and were apparently accepted by them. This, pretty much, was the ethnic content of Scotland until the time of Rome. Reportedly the Picts and Albans defeated(?) the Romans and repelled them from scotland. Subsequently, the Laiginn and Scottis invaded Argyll in the 0 AD to 500 AD timeframe and occupied southwestern scotland. Then all hell broke loose as the vikings came out of the north and east and conquered(annihilated) the island folk and made inroads into eastern england. Along with this internal fighting between the tribes began until c. 700 AD, there was a Pictish king and c.850 a Scotti King. This resulted in all physical traces of the Picts and Albans being eliminated by 950 AD or so. There are still genetic traces of all the tribes in the highland clans. My hypothesis is that the Albans are the 12/2x, the Picts have a 11/11 at 391/385a, The campbells carry the Laiginn haplotype(15 at 385b,19/20 at 458,a 16 at 464c) and the scottis are typically a 10/11 at 391/385a. A good analysis of part of this can be seen at the Clan Gregor blogspot. go to: www.clangregor.org/macgregor/dna.html and click the new blue blogspot. the Jan 09 discussion and presentation is very pertinent to what I have said although the author doesn't name names of the various tribal constituents.

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                  • #10
                    Jim & Ironroad; thanks for the info & the links.... Very interesting.

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                    • #11
                      Wow! I didn't know that specific families, or ydna lines, were proven to be direct descendants of specific ancient tribes of the British Isles. I wish I had that kind of specific information from my autosomals, especially of my still unknown source of my 17% Native American Indian which could be from anywhere from Alaska to Patagonia. Or even from Central Asia.

                      Three of my four grandparents had varying degrees of Scottish ancestry. My mother's mother died not knowing she had some Scottish ancestry - and it was from the royal lines - that go way back and includes a Pictish Princess. My mother's fathers side was mostly Scottish and my mom told me that his line was Pict, and originally from the Highlands, and that the one English person in that line was of Jute ancestry. My father's mother was also part Scottish.

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                      • #12
                        Lot's of R-L21 in Munster. My ancestor was from there.
                        The niall sequence's that are M222+...are R-L21+ also.

                        Current thinking has R-L21 entering the Isles perhaps in the bronze age.

                        Did L-21 enter England and then Scotland? and then Ireland?

                        Or did they go from England across to Ireland, and then cross back over to invade Scotland?

                        I don't know the extent of R-L21+ in Scotland as a whole. Maybe they were invading themselves?

                        I also question the "Laiginn sequence" This so called tribe was well before surnames.

                        According to Ireland History in Maps, the Laigin arrived in Ireland and england 3rd-1st century BC. This goup of people would probably have different haplo-types. How can we say the Cambells sequence represents that people?...all i I see a lot of wishfull thinking put into type. you can't follow a family of Campbells back to 200 BC, when the name Campbell didn't exist then.
                        Last edited by M.O'Connor; 15 April 2009, 02:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          a link to Ireland History in Maps http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire000.htm

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                          • #14
                            Who were the original people of Ireland? Was it the Laigin from the 3rd to 1st century B.C. ? Where did they come from? Coastal Iberia? Do people from Ireland get autosomal matches to Syria & Morocco & Portugal? Is the surname Logan (in my tree) from Laigin?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M.O'Connor View Post
                              Thank you. I was just wondering about that.

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