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  • Confused, possibility of Ashkenazi Ancestry?

    Hi,

    My Paternal side comes from mainly Germany but my results (12 marker) are showing a strong connection to eastern europe. In alot of the comment sections of the results there's "Ashkenazi" and if im not mistaken thats Jewish. I just want to know, considering my results that im about to post, if there's a strong chance that some of my ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews or not. My haplogroup is R1a1 also. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you!

    Austria 1 - 1 423 0.2%
    Belarus 1 Belorussian 1 475 0.2%
    Belgium 1 - 1 380 0.3%
    Canada 1 - 1 170 0.6%
    Cyprus 1 - 1 39 N/A
    Czech Republic 2 Bohemia 2 416 0.5%
    Denmark 2 - 2 619 0.3%
    England 2 - 2 17,732 < 0.1%
    Germany 12 - 12 8,790 0.1%
    Hungary 4 - 4 829 0.5%
    Lithuania 2 - 2 714 0.3%
    Netherlands 2 - 2 1,245 0.2%
    Poland 13 - 14 2,667 0.5%
    1 Galicia
    Romania 1 - 1 407 0.2%
    Russian Federation 1 - 2 2,413 0.1%
    1 Mordva
    Scotland 1 - 1 8,050 < 0.1%
    Slovakia 1 - 1 383 0.3%
    Sweden 1 - 1 1,250 0.1%
    Switzerland 1 - 1 1,254 0.1%
    Ukraine 3 - 3 1,099 0.3%
    One Step Mutations
    Country Your Matches Comment Match Total Country Total Percentage
    Austria 6 - 7 423 1.7%
    1 Ashkenazi-Levite
    Belarus 2 - 16 475 3.4%
    7 Ashkenazi
    7 Ashkenazi-Levite
    Belgium 1 - 1 380 0.3%
    Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 - 1 48 N/A
    China 1 Uygur (Central Asian origin) 1 907 0.1%
    Croatia 3 - 3 166 1.8%
    Czech Republic 9 - 19 416 4.6%
    7 Bohemia
    3 Czechoslovakia
    Denmark 9 - 9 619 1.5%
    England 15 - 15 17,732 0.1%
    Estonia 1 - 1 51 N/A
    Finland 8 - 8 1,063 0.8%
    France 10 - 15 2,439 0.6%
    2 Ashkenazi
    3 Ashkenazi-Levite
    Georgia 1 - 1 24 N/A
    Germany 108 - 131 8,790 1.5%
    10 Ashkenazi
    9 Ashkenazi-Levite
    1 Brandenburg
    1 East Prussia
    1 Holstein
    1 Prussia
    Greece 11 - 11 553 2.0%
    Hungary 17 - 21 829 2.5%
    4 Ashkenazi
    Iceland 1 - 1 136 0.7%
    India 6 - 6 1,133 0.5%
    Iran 1 - 1 185 0.5%
    Ireland 8 - 8 10,051 0.1%
    Israel 2 - 2 109 1.8%
    Italy 8 - 10 2,605 0.4%
    1 Apulia
    1 Sicily
    Latvia 1 - 4 197 2.0%
    2 Ashkenazi
    1 Prussia-Ashkenazi
    Lebanon 1 - 1 160 0.6%
    Lithuania 14 - 28 714 3.9%
    10 Ashkenazi
    4 Ashkenazi-Levite
    Macedonia 2 - 2 37 N/A
    Moldova 1 - 3 47 N/A
    2 Ashkenazi
    Mongolia 1 - 4 576 0.7%
    3 Kazakh from Central Asia
    Netherlands 6 - 6 1,245 0.5%
    Norway 8 - 8 986 0.8%
    Pakistan 2 - 2 112 1.8%
    Poland 90 - 121 2,667 4.5%
    14 Ashkenazi
    1 Ashkenazi (Lodje)
    1 Ashkenazi (Lukow)
    4 Ashkenazi-Levite
    1 Ashkenazi-Levite (Skala)
    2 Galicia
    8 Prussia
    Portugal 1 - 2 570 0.4%
    1 Sephardic
    Romania 11 - 13 407 3.2%
    2 Ashkenazi
    Russian Federation 26 - 58 2,413 2.4%
    11 Ashkenazi
    2 Ashkenazi-Levite
    19 Native Siberian
    Scotland 8 - 8 8,050 0.1%
    Serbia 3 - 3 57 N/A
    Slovakia 18 - 19 383 5.0%
    1 Czechoslovakia
    Slovenia 5 - 6 103 5.8%
    1 Ashkenazi
    South Africa 3 - 3 120 2.5%
    Spain 3 - 3 2,390 0.1%
    Sri Lanka 1 - 1 152 0.7%
    Sweden 13 - 13 1,250 1.0%
    Switzerland 2 - 3 1,254 0.2%
    1 Ashkenazi
    Ukraine 24 - 33 1,099 3.0%
    7 Ashkenazi
    2 Ashkenazi-Levite
    United Kingdom 8 - 9 8,002 0.1%
    Last edited by Joshua; 23 March 2009, 03:09 PM. Reason: forgot to add something

  • #2
    I am no expert in R1a, so others will help. But in general, R1a is the most common haplogroup in Eastern Europe, but it is also common in Germany and Scandinavia (I forgot the percentages). Having lived in eastern Europe for centuries, a number of Ashkenazi Jews (about 10% perhaps?) are also R1a, but the direction goes from Eastern Europeans into Ashkenazi rather than viceversa.
    Very many Ashkenazi Jews have tested, so they often appear in matches.

    However, without further information, I'd say that R1a is perfectly in line with a German origin.

    cacio

    Comment


    • #3
      Ancestral origins

      The highest probability of your origins seems to be from Czechoslovakia and Poland, not Ashkenazi. What is your family myth of origin?

      Comment


      • #4
        bob chasm, my immediate family comes from Germany

        Comment


        • #5
          Joshua,

          As others have said, there is a certain amount of R1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews. But as you can see by your RAO list, your 12-marker matches are a mix of both Jews and non-Jews.

          Matches at 12 markers don't necessary reflect recent connections, and it's VERY common for Jews and non-Jews to match each other at this level. As an administrator of several Jewish DNA projects here, I am constantly getting email from non-Jewish people who are stymied by their 12-marker Ashkenazi matches and wonder if that means they have Jewish ancestry.

          My answer is this -- test more markers. The more markers you compare, the more you refine your matches into recent timeframe (hundreds of years rather than thousands of years). You have the option to upgrade to 25, 37 or 67 markers. 25 can still give distant and ambiguous matches, so I always recommend going with 37. You could go all the way to 67 if you want, but it's usually not necessary for this purpose.

          At 37 markers, you'll get matches who are related within about 500 years (give or take). So if you still have Ashkenazi matches at the closest levels (GD of 0, 1, 2) at 37 markers, that would be a much higher indication that you may indeed have Jewish ancestry. But, if your close Ashkenazi matches disappear at 37 markers and you match only non-Jewish people, then that would indicate non-Jewish ancestry.

          Project participants get a discount on testing. If you're not already in a project, you should join the Haplogroup R1a project before you upgrade. Besides getting the discount, you'll also have a project administrator who should be very familiar with R1a and be able to answer more detailed questions about the R1a haplogroup.

          http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1aY-Haplogroup/

          To upgrade your markers, log in to your MyFTDNA account, click Order Tests and Upgrades on the left, then find Y-Refine12to37 in the menu and follow the rest of the instructions to complete the order.

          One other money-saving tip -- for R1a, it's generally not recommended to order the Deep-Clade test that's offered on your Haplotree page. This would test you for 5 subgroups of R1a1, but those subgroups appear to be extremely rare, and not a single person in the project has tested positive for them yet.

          Hope this helps,

          Elise
          Last edited by efgen; 23 March 2009, 04:38 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting

            Originally posted by efgen View Post

            One other money-saving tip -- for R1a, it's generally not recommended to order the Deep-Clade test that's offered on your Haplotree page. This would test you for 5 subgroups of R1a1, but those subgroups appear to be extremely rare, and not a single person in the project has tested positive for them yet.

            Hope this helps,

            Elise
            Elise,

            To what is this statistic generally attributed? It is interesting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Deirwha View Post
              Elise,
              To what is this statistic generally attributed? It is interesting.
              I'm not directly involved with R1a, so I don't know the specifics of the R1a subclades. However, from my experience with other haplogroups, I would guess that these SNPs were found through academic/scientific research studies in populations that are not likely purchase DNA testing from FTDNA. Or, they could be private SNPs that were found in one or two people and added to the tree, but never found in anyone else.

              In fact, the ISOGG tree has 3 of the SNPs marked as private:

              http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

              References for each SNP can be found here:

              http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html

              Elise
              Last edited by efgen; 23 March 2009, 04:53 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks

                Originally posted by efgen View Post
                I'm not directly involved with R1a, so I don't know the specifics of the R1a subclades. However, from my experience with other haplogroups, I would guess that these SNPs were found through academic/scientific research studies in populations that are not likely purchase DNA testing from FTDNA. Or, they could be private SNPs that were found in one or two people and added to the tree, but never found in anyone else.

                In fact, the ISOGG tree has 3 of the SNPs marked as private:

                http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

                References for each SNP can be found here:

                http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index09.html

                Elise
                I have run across the phenomenon of "private" DNA on both my y and mitochondrial side. I certainly understand in each case why and respect their privacy need.

                On the other hand, I sometimes wonder the extent to which the need to maintain the zone of privacy does not at the same time influence the extent of our knowledge. Same sort of wondering about how, for want of a better term, a private certitude might influence the questions not asked in a system funded by private pay. I think we all know how private certitude influences how alternative answers are received and therefore the willingness of individuals to experiment with discussing alternatives, at least publicly, but I suspect in can influence what questions one asks aloud as well as what answers one speaks.

                I don't have an idea for a "better" system, if indeed better is the word. The academic venue strikes me as unable to obtain adequate financing to launch adequate research as an alternative to private pay. I think that is probably not a function of the interests of or pressures from privately paid institutions. It is quite common in academia to form a private company as an adjunct to an academic career that brings in more money. Nevertheless, lots of research goes on in academia and and is funded outside of those private companies. I wonder about the practice, still. In the models I have seen, there is one distinct difference between the private pay company and academic research. Private pay companies often receive research dollars that once went into academia but stopped going into academia when the latter began insisting on no prior conditions on where the research led or control over the publication content. I am rambling, I know. I am just wondering aloud tonight at the impact on all of us who seek by our method of seeking. Your comment about privately held dna results reminded me of this subject, which is on my mind at the moment.

                Comment


                • #9
                  John,

                  You misunderstand what is meant by private here We don't mean private as in information is being withheld. Instead, we mean that the SNP has ONLY been found in a single individual, or maybe a small family group, rather than in a large population -- despite extensive testing.

                  Elise

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ah

                    Originally posted by efgen View Post
                    John,

                    You misunderstand what is meant by private here We don't mean private as in information is being withheld. Instead, we mean that the SNP has ONLY been found in a single individual, or maybe a small family group, rather than in a large population -- despite extensive testing.

                    Elise
                    ok. Yes I did misunderstand. Got one of them too on my mt. Oh well, open mouth insert foot.

                    John

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Joshua, I second efgen's point about the need for more markers. I certainly would not rule out the possibility of Ashkenazi ancestry. Some FTDNA members do not understand that one can be Ashkenazi and not be identified as such on the RAO page. Surname might be a better guide except that it is not always easy to distinguish between German and Jewish surnames. I suspect that this is the case with some of your eastern and central European matches.

                      As was noted R1a is common among Ashkenazim. In the FTDNA library see the study by Behar on Levites which found R1a to be the most common haplogroup among Ashkenazi Levites. Behar suggested that for this group, the R1a came from western Asia possibly from the Khazars.

                      None of this implies that you must have Ashkenazi origins. Testing for more markers should clarify the issue.
                      Also Josh
                      Last edited by josh w.; 25 March 2009, 06:33 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Joshua,

                        In keeping with Josh's reply, not everyone who is Jewish has that listed in their comments, so it's *possible* that you have more Jewish matches than you know of. Also, even if additional marker results don't show you to be a close match with those who identify themselves as Jewish today (connections that could be traceable through a genealogical paper trail), that still would not necessarily rule out the *possibility* of having ancient Jewish roots.

                        Vinnie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What I think about all that is the same as what cacio wrote. Reread what cacio wrote. I think that all R is of European not Levantine or Ashkenazi or Jewish origin. What happened somewhere along the line was a non- paternal event occurred but the family chose to be Ashkenazi. My opinion is that the true Jewish ydna haplogroup would be the same as or similar to other ethnic groups that remained in the Levant such as the Lebanese and Palestinians. I think it is J. There is R1b in the Levant today but I think it was left there by Europeans during the Crusades. Ashkenazi's are listed in manx haplogroups. How can that be? It is because they strongly self-identify as Ashkenazi even though their ydna isn't. In other words, most European Jews are actually mostly or completely European. In Israel they consider a person as being a true Jew only if the mother was Jewish. Now, why is that? I think it is because they must have known that there were non-paternal events. The Jewish fathers were not the biological

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=rainbow;147123]What I think about all that is the same as what cacio wrote. Reread what cacio wrote. I think that all R is of European not Levantine or Ashkenazi or Jewish origin. What happened somewhere along the line was a non- paternal event occurred but the family chose to be Ashkenazi. My opinion is that the true Jewish ydna haplogroup would be the same as or similar to other ethnic groups that remained in the Levant such as the Lebanese and Palestinians. I think it is J. There is R1b in the Levant today but I think it was left there by Europeans during the Crusades. Ashkenazi's are listed in many haplogroups. How can that be? It is because they strongly self-identify as Ashkenazi even though their ydna isn't. In other words, most European Jews are actually mostly or completely European. In Israel they consider a person as being a true Jew only if the mother was Jewish, and I think it is because they must have known that there were non-paternal events.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If you go on to do 37 or 67 markers you may find some cousins, but whether or not they self-identify as Ashkenazi I don't believe R1a is Jewish. It is European.

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