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DYS 391 query

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  • DYS 391 query

    Does anyone have a proven family member or distant relative on their family tree who has a different DYS 391 score to their own?
    I score DYS 391 = 10, yet nearly all my 34/37 & 35/37 matches score DYS 391 = 11. Other than my own known cousins, 11 seems to be the norm.
    Curious Bob!

  • #2
    Dys 391

    Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
    Does anyone have a proven family member or distant relative on their family tree who has a different DYS 391 score to their own?
    I score DYS 391 = 10, yet nearly all my 34/37 & 35/37 matches score DYS 391 = 11. Other than my own known cousins, 11 seems to be the norm.
    Curious Bob!
    At least you have been able to persuade your family members to test!
    I see "old kook coming" looks and they scatter. But, as consolation, I am DYS 391 = 10.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello John,
      I got lucky in that my Armstrongs are from Bedfordshire - a rare outpost for the name. I then got lucky in finding 2 branches who were also researching their roots on the internet. My final breakthrough was manging to track another chap in N Zealand who also had Bedfordshire links.
      I match 36/37 with these branches, the common ancestor being in 1701 in the county.
      Cheers
      Bob
      PS The luck element was strong, but backed by about 25 years of on-&-off research!

      Comment


      • #4
        The 3 Conner have a common ancestor.

        Conner Ireland R1b1b2 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 26 18 09 09 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 11 19 23 16 15 18
        Conner Ireland R1b1b2 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 26 18 09 09 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 11 19 23 16 15 19
        Conner Ireland R1b1b2 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 26 18 09 09 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 11 19 23 16 15 19

        My sequence is similar..12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 10 19 23 16 15 18
        Last edited by M.O'Connor; 2 March 2009, 12:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          That is interesting. I wonder if DYS 391 10 or 11 will be the ancestral one? Do you have any thoughts/guesses? I think I recall that 11 was deemed to be the oldest generally, but a reason was never stated.
          Thanks,
          Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not sure which one is ancestral.

            Also 393=13 seems the norm for L-21. So I consider my 393=12 a mutational change from 13.
            I remembered the 393=12 question a few years ago in the Reevers Project.
            Perhaps some that are 393=12 with L21+ can be explained this way.
            Last edited by M.O'Connor; 2 March 2009, 01:05 PM.

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            • #7
              I'm also 393 = 13, but they've classified me as L21-. I've a gut feeling that DYS 391 will prove to be one of the more important loci when it comes to research.
              Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the Scottish problem is more tricky than many areas of the British Isles for research using Y-DNA, as it seems likely that many people may have just adopted the name of the strongest 'leader' in the area. I've seen reports of people actually changing their name when they moved from one region to another. (By extrapolation, partsd of Ireland will have inherited the same difficulty!)
                Cheers,
                Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  RE DYS = 10 0r 11

                  I'm R1a1, and my DYS 391 = 10. But most Norwegian R1a1 are DYS = 11. Or that is what I recall being discussed on DNA Forums. I belong to an obscure Norwegian west coast clade, it seems.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Welcome brother

                    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
                    I'm R1a1, and my DYS 391 = 10. But most Norwegian R1a1 are DYS = 11. Or that is what I recall being discussed on DNA Forums. I belong to an obscure Norwegian west coast clade, it seems.
                    I belong to an obscure clade whose origins are much disputed but strike me to epicenter in Anglin.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dys391

                      Bob,

                      I have a similar issue so I spent some time looking into the matter and running simulations.

                      All STR's can mutate. Both up and down. DYS391 is one of the faster ones at a rate of 0.00265 per generation.

                      In one paper, literature search results showed 25 father/son mutations at DYS391 out of 8672 opportunities.

                      If many other similar haplotypes are 10 but only you and your cousins are 11 I would guess 10 to be the older version.

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                      • #12
                        does this mean the lower mutated numbers are older than the higher ones? so if the dys is normally 11 and my husband is 9, then he has a much older marker? is that how it works? or is it random?

                        quote;
                        I have a similar issue so I spent some time looking into the matter and running simulations.

                        All STR's can mutate. Both up and down. DYS391 is one of the faster ones at a rate of 0.00265 per generation.

                        In one paper, literature search results showed 25 father/son mutations at DYS391 out of 8672 opportunities.

                        If many other similar haplotypes are 10 but only you and your cousins are 11 I would guess 10 to be the older version.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the replies everyone. I didn't realise that DYS 391 was one of the faster markers. For some reason I thought it was quite stable. It's helpful if it's faster as it would make my family's DYS 391 = 10 score seem less distant to the majority of my surname group's 11 score.
                          Fascinating.
                          Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Also Bob if you are L21+ with a 393=12. Try y-search with 393=13.

                            It seems to me 393=13 is the norm for L-21+ people.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M.O'Connor View Post
                              Also Bob if you are L21+ with a 393=12. Try y-search with 393=13.

                              It seems to me 393=13 is the norm for L-21+ people.
                              I'm DYS 393 = 13, but L21-, but I see your reasoning. It could be a useful research aid.
                              Thanks,
                              Bob

                              Comment

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