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  • Obscure BUTT family

    The parents of my gr gr grandfather Bazil Butt (aka Bazil Baker Butt), b. 3/13/1797 are unknown. My father (desceased in 1979) and I both spent our life times trying to find his parents. I am now using DNA. 8 men have been found whose 25-marker tests match mine exactly. All 9 of our lines truncate in the late 1700's. So, far, at least 5 genetically different BUTT/BUTTS/BUTTE families have been identified. There is a prominent BUTT family that goes back to a Richard Butt, b. 1670 or so who owned a place called Batchelors Delight which was part of Darnall's Grove in Prince George's County, MD. It was thought for decades that my gr gr grandfather Bazil Butt somehow descended from that Richard Butt. We have found now thru DNA testing that the DNA of those of us who match, DOES NOT match that of Richard Butt of Batchelors Delight. I have come to the conclusion that my BUTT ancestors are a family that is currently obscure. About all we know from the late 1700's back is that we are British. I am hoping that someday a gentleman named BUTT in the UK will have his DNA tested and it will be found to match mine. Perhaps in that way we can track down the parents of this Bazil Butt. I am also hoping that this message will get to someone who might be able to shed some light on all this for me. I maintain a web site with all the information I have collected over the years. The address is: www.dennis-william-butt.com. My email address is [email protected]. Please contact me if you can be of any assistance. Several of the best family biographers/genealogist/researchers are working on this project. They too would be happy to learn something about all this.

    D Butt

  • #2
    Not the UK. Flanders. Or Anglo-Irish of Flemish ancestry.

    In Ireland, the surname Butt is derived from de Bot, which I think you will find is Flemish. http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm

    The Flemish went to Ireland with the Normans you know. Actually they were already established in Pembrokeshire Wales, so they didn't have far to go.

    Regards,
    Jim

    Comment


    • #3
      Obscure BUTT family

      Thank you Jim.

      I'm told that all eight of us whose 25-marker tests match, are British. Do you know if FTDNA distinguishes between British and Irish/Anglo-Irish/Flemish?

      In any event, I appreciate your input very, much. And, thanks to you I've learned something which is what all this is all about.

      Thanks,
      D Butt

      Comment


      • #4
        Until I read the two threads stating that it's from England I was gonna say that I thought the name was an abbreviation of Buttafuoco and I think it's maybe Italian.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dennis Butt View Post
          Thank you Jim.

          I'm told that all eight of us whose 25-marker tests match, are British. Do you know if FTDNA distinguishes between British and Irish/Anglo-Irish/Flemish?

          In any event, I appreciate your input very, much. And, thanks to you I've learned something which is what all this is all about.

          Thanks,
          D Butt
          Dennis,

          I don't think they can distinguish British and Irish/Anglo-Irish/Flemish. At least not very well. Have you an your matches considered upgrading to 37 or 67 markers? It could lessen the time span between your distances in generations.

          I came across a website that said that the name can be English or German.... it could be anything really... just like the name Smith.

          Good luck in your searches

          Comment


          • #6
            Obscure BUTT family

            I will call FTDNA today and discuss with them whether or not they can clearly distinguish between British and the other countries of origin. There are four most common spellings: BUTT, BUTTE, BUTTS and BUTZ. BUTZ is German. BUTT is most commonly thought to be the original spelling of the others, and that some have just added the "E" or "S". Some members of my known family have done so.

            Thomas K. Butt, co-administrator of the BUTT Group at FTDNA has done an enormous amount of research on his family. He has the same problem I do in that his line truncates in the late 1700's as well. Tom is the one who got me interested in doing DNA. He and I are not related. The other co-administrator is Peggy (BUTT) Hutchinson. She too has done an enormous amount of family research. Her BUTT family is known to originate in the U. K. Peggy's BUTT family and mine are not related either, nor is her BUTT family related to Tom. Tom and Peggy maintain a BUTT Group page on the FTDNA site. They discuss "country of origin" there.

            Thomas Butt has said; "Virginia was crawling with BUTT people in the late 1700's and early 1800's." Indeed it was. BUTT was a very common name at that time, but in addition, they used the same first name over and over and over again. I am told that one renowned researcher has 70+ people named Richard Butt in her files. Another quote from Thomas K. Butt is; "Another confounding thing is the plethora of Archibalds in the Butt families of that era, and even a fair number of Addisons. One researcher lamented it as being 'lost in the Archibalds'."

            As mentioned, Peggy's BUTT family (Norfolk, VA) is very well defined and known to originate in the U K. There is another BUTT family that is known to go back to a Richard Butt (b. ~1670) who in 1700 purchased 200 acres in Darnall's Grove in Prince George's County, MD known as Batchelor's Delight. This is very near the current Andrew's Air Force Base. This Richard Butt family was intermarried with the Duvall's, Tyler's, Beall's and others. One of the Duvall's contributed the land upon which the original St. Barnabas Church of Leeland, MD was built. This Richard Butt was a member of that church and, accordingly, his family records are on file there. His descendants have been thoroughly researched. Most believe the father of this Richard Butt was a William Butt who came here from the U K as well. All the early renowned family biographers/genealogists believed that my BUTT family went back to this Richard Butt. DNA has shown though that I am apart from this family by a genetic distance of 2!!!!!

            There exists yet another BUTT family that I know of that I am apart from by a genetic distance of 1. This Butt family is apart from the Richard Butt family mentioned above by a genetic distance of 3!!!!! And neither of these families match Thomas K. Butt nor Peggy (BUTT) Hutchinson. This makes 5 known genetically different BUTT families and I know of at least one more that is believed to be yet another. However, all of these families have either been shown to originate in the U K, or their family lore is that they are British.

            I have been biased by all this information. So, as mentioned, I will call FTDNA today to see if they can distinguish between the various origin's mentioned in this thread. This may shed new light on our research.

            In any event, I appreciate very much, all your input on this matter.

            Many people in the past have researched all this thoroughly. We have all their work to benefit our current effort. There are two other world-class researchers, in addition to Thomas K. Butt and Peggy (BUTT) Hutchinson currently working on this project. These two are retired as am I so it has become for us, far more than just a hobby. We work at it every day. Then I have two distant cousins who maintain wonderful BUTT family sites. One of those is a fair and very active researcher as well. Her uncle was a renowned BUTT family researcher and when he died, she inherited all his files. She turned all that into the web site she maintains. What I'm leading to here is that we share all the information we get. So, I can thank you all for you comments for all of them as well as just me.

            All the tests that I've had done to date have been 25-marker tests. One guy who I match did 67-markers. I have always thought about increasing the 25-marker tests to 37 or 67. But, frankly, I have not yet had the need. The 25-marker test tells me all I currently need to know. I will keep this in mind though and thank you for the suggestion.

            Thanks,

            D Butt

            Comment


            • #7
              What haplogroup are these cases?

              Regards,
              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                Obscure BUTT family

                Hello Jim, the are R1b1b2.

                D. Butt

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dennis Butt View Post
                  Hello Jim, the are R1b1b2.

                  D. Butt
                  I defer to the experts, but I though R1b researchers ignored all but exact matches at 67 markers.

                  Perhaps an R1b researcher will comment on that.

                  Regards,
                  Jim
                  not R1b

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Obscure BUTT family

                    I am certainly not an expert on ANY of this. I've not seen a need to use any of it, at least up until now, because I"ve been searching for my BUTT ancestors right here in this county, which dead-ends abruptly in the late 1700's.

                    I would add, for what it's worth, that on my FTDNA page it says R1b1b2 but adds; "Shorthand R-M269". I am oblivious about that.....too!!!!!

                    My gr gr grandfather Bazil Butt (aka Bazil Baker Butt), b. 3/13/1797, seems to have been raised by his Uncle Richard. We have Uncle Richard's 1810 Berkeley County, VA/WV will wherein he mentions raising four nephews, one of whom was "a" Bazil (various spellings). The Nephews would have been the correct age for this Richard to have raised them. We have no idea who the father was of the four nephews, except of course that he was Richard's brother. We know nothing more about Uncle Richard either; where he was born, where he's buried, etc., except we know the sale of his property after he died was conducted on the road between Swan Pond, VA/WV and Bilmire's MIll, the latter of which is just North of the Jefferson County line in Berkeley County. So, we've been trying to move backwards from there.

                    I've concluded now that the BUTT family I'm looking for is one about which we have no information father back than the late 1700's. So, we've changed our perspective and are now attempting to find a BUTT man who came to this country at the right time to be the common male ancestor for whom we are looking. And we know he came here some time between about 1650 and 1700.

                    I may be dead wrong about this, but, I do not see how the halpogroup to which I belong would help us in all this. If it would, I sure would like to know how.

                    With DNA testing we have identified seven people whose 25-marker tests match mine exactly. I've attached a chart that includes the substance of what we know about them. All these people believe our common male ancestor was British. So at the moment at least, we will work at it from that perspective.

                    Thank you again, very much,

                    D Butt
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dennis Butt View Post
                      I am certainly not an expert on ANY of this. I've not seen a need to use any of it, at least up until now, because I"ve been searching for my BUTT ancestors right here in this county, which dead-ends abruptly in the late 1700's.

                      I would add, for what it's worth, that on my FTDNA page it says R1b1b2 but adds; "Shorthand R-M269". I am oblivious about that.....too!!!!!

                      My gr gr grandfather Bazil Butt (aka Bazil Baker Butt), b. 3/13/1797, seems to have been raised by his Uncle Richard. We have Uncle Richard's 1810 Berkeley County, VA/WV will wherein he mentions raising four nephews, one of whom was "a" Bazil (various spellings). The Nephews would have been the correct age for this Richard to have raised them. We have no idea who the father was of the four nephews, except of course that he was Richard's brother. We know nothing more about Uncle Richard either; where he was born, where he's buried, etc., except we know the sale of his property after he died was conducted on the road between Swan Pond, VA/WV and Bilmire's MIll, the latter of which is just North of the Jefferson County line in Berkeley County. So, we've been trying to move backwards from there.

                      I've concluded now that the BUTT family I'm looking for is one about which we have no information father back than the late 1700's. So, we've changed our perspective and are now attempting to find a BUTT man who came to this country at the right time to be the common male ancestor for whom we are looking. And we know he came here some time between about 1650 and 1700.

                      I may be dead wrong about this, but, I do not see how the halpogroup to which I belong would help us in all this. If it would, I sure would like to know how.

                      With DNA testing we have identified seven people whose 25-marker tests match mine exactly. I've attached a chart that includes the substance of what we know about them. All these people believe our common male ancestor was British. So at the moment at least, we will work at it from that perspective.

                      Thank you again, very much,

                      D Butt
                      The shorthand for R1b1b2 is R-M269, which is just a shorter name. M269 is a SNP for R1b1b2. It defines R1b1b2. But there other subclades of R1b1b2 defined by other SNPs. You can see them all on your Haplotree.... well not all just the ones that FTDNA has published. If you want to see all of the SNPs and where they fit check out ISOGG. I'm sure a Haplogroup R1(a,b) could give a MUCH better explanation.

                      The shorthand for my Haplogroup I1 is I-M253.

                      Hope those links help some.

                      The more markers you have the less time span given for the common ancestor. 37 markers or 67 markers would be very could your BUTT family.

                      I tested 37 markers, and found only one exact match with a variant surname. I am still hoping for matches.

                      My family dead ends in around 1797-98 in Scotland/NS, Canada. Although we are closer to identifying further ancestors in Scotland then before.

                      Good luck in your searches.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At www.smgf.org is a pedigree including a William Butt of Lea, Wiltshire, England. Too late for you, but at least you know that's where the name is found.

                        www.familysearch.org has a pedigree which jumps the pond. Richard Butt b. NY d. PG County MD, son of William Butt b. about 1637 in England. Can you tie in with that?

                        Regards,
                        Jim

                        Edit: I didn't answer your DNA question. Since your surname is rare, you might as well assume that you do have a common ancestor, and look for clues in those other lines.
                        Last edited by Jim Honeychuck; 21 February 2009, 01:56 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Obscure BUTT family

                          I didn't know about the William Butt from Lea, Wilshire, England. I will chech him out thoroughly. Thank you very much.

                          I do know about the William Butt, b. ~1637 and the Richard Butt, b. PG Co., MD. I've never been able to connect the two with any kind of documentation. I do know this Richard is the one who purchased 200+ acres of property in Darnall's Grove in 1700 called Batchelors Delight. He moved there from Calvert County. The St. Barnabas Church records (Leeland, MD) list his children. He had a daughter named Dinah who married William Green. I descend from this couple.

                          One major problem with the BUTT name is that, in the words of Thomas K. Butt, co-administrator of the BUTT group at FTDNA, in the late 1700's, the East coast was "crawling" with BUTT people. It was then a very, very common name.

                          Thank you very, very much for your help in all this.

                          D Butt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Obscure BUTT family

                            I compared my 25 markers to the BUTT men in the SMGF data base, including the one who descends from William Butt of Lea, Wiltshire, England. I match none of them.

                            This makes seven known European BUTT families that are not genetically related.

                            Thanks again,

                            D Butt

                            Comment

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