23andme

[Deirwha]

... The younger generation is, however, beginning to eclipse many of us old timers. For example people such as Vince Vizachero is truly a super star of the field today, and his skill set extends across a variety of topics in genetic genealogy. Rather than get left in the dust people like me can at least make a contribution by specializing. When Jim Wilson and I started EthnoAncestry in 2004 we had to be jacks of all trades. Now with chip technology and giant leaps in technology this is much more difficult - and my hats off to those who can keep in the forefront of all areas (Dr. Ann Turner being one of them). So for me, back to my obsessive quest to learn more about U152 and the X-DNA of Native Americans and whatever tweaks my curiosity for the moment. One thing is clear, I can not possibly ever be bored during my retirement. What a fantastic "hobby" - and I know a bit about what is coming down the pike and things are going to get even more absorbing very soon.

I relate to the fantastic hobby in retirement part. It is also a nice outlet for an old O/C lawyer. I greatly admire Dr. Turner, too. I have not had as much contact with Vince. This has been a mind expanding adventure from day 1 and a straight up hill learning curve. Delightful because that is the kind of roller coaster ride I love.

[kat]

23 and Me

Hi David ;Do you think if one is tested NOW with 23&me that they will allow discounts later on ,with more markers .Some companies ,I believe ,do this , DNA Print did at one time ,I m still contemplating , my interest is ethnicity , thank you ..KAT.

[PDHOTLEN]

or another choice...

If I had all that loose money lying around to be able to get an expensive autosomal test, I'd probably choose to by a gold fund ETF instead.

[DKF]

Hi David ;Do you think if one is tested NOW with 23&me that they will allow discounts later on ,with more markers .Some companies ,I believe ,do this , DNA Print did at one time ,I m still contemplating , my interest is ethnicity , thank you ..KAT.

I have spoken with with those in the know and clearly their profit margins must be very very slender (due to the cost of the chip alone). I know of no plans at present to up the number of markers. I agree with them that it is more important to concentrate on obtaining good reference samples for the 500 k markers they already have.

[kat]

23 and Me

David : Thank you for your appropriate & knowledgable response ..KAT.

[jaranta]

Received my 23andme results

My 23andme ancestry results differ from other results. My 23andme results are: >99% Euro, <1% Asian. Two years ago, in Ancestry by DNA (done through Genelex) I got 85% Euro, 5% Asian, 5% Native Amer., 5% Sub-Saharan African.

My 23andme maternal haplogroup (H1*) also differs from my Family Tree DNA results of H.

In my 23andme ancestry painting, I have areas that are "not genotyped," as most people do I think. 23andme does not include these in the percentages. Will they revise results as more human groups are genotyped?

Now I'm wishing I had done Decodeme instead, since I read that they have DNA from more human groups than any other testing service. Does anyone know if that is true?

Judy

[Maria_W]

I go by DeCodeMe and ABDNA results...

Judy,
Heres my results.
My 23andme has me at 100% European...Which in no way do I beleive. They don't even paint the X...
My ABDNA test has me at 10% Native American and 90% European... I do have Potowomeck ancestry from Colonial Virginia in the 1600's. Theres a few leads for a more recent line off of my Martin line for Cherokee...
I did the DeCodeMe test and I got 6% Asian on the Autosomal and 9% on the X.
I go by the ABDNA and the DeCodeMe test results. I just throw out the ancestry painting by 23andme and the rest is pretty cool..
David Faux who has Mohawk ancestry also recieved 100% European on his results... I am sure their are alot more out there.
So if anyone else has proven Native Ancestry and you have taken these test and recieved a totally different result please post...

Maria

[Fannie]

My 23andme ancestry results differ from other results. My 23andme results are: >99% Euro, <1% Asian. Two years ago, in Ancestry by DNA (done through Genelex) I got 85% Euro, 5% Asian, 5% Native Amer., 5% Sub-Saharan African.

My 23andme maternal haplogroup (H1*) also differs from my Family Tree DNA results of H.

In my 23andme ancestry painting, I have areas that are "not genotyped," as most people do I think. 23andme does not include these in the percentages. Will they revise results as more human groups are genotyped?

Now I'm wishing I had done Decodeme instead, since I read that they have DNA from more human groups than any other testing service. Does anyone know if that is true?

Judy

Decodeme is in financial difficulty so perhaps you made a good financial choice at least.
Fannie

[cacio]

jaranta:

i'm not sure who has most coverage, 23andme and decodeme.

The main difference though is that they use different algorithms. 23andme's algorithm tends to assign 100% to one of the three groups, while decodeme gives positive values to all three (eg while 23andme gives most Europeans 100% Europe, decodeme gives about 90% Europe, 6 Asia and 4 Africa). I think we discussed this in a thread here some time ago.

As for the H vs H1, this is because FTDNA genographic project basic test only checks down to the level of H. 23andme happens to test the mutation defining H1, hence they could establish it. (But for instance, for other subgroups of H, they may not have the mutation, and hence these would be H in both tests).

cacio

[burto]

Decodeme is in financial difficulty so perhaps you made a good financial choice at least.
Fannie

They told me they were ok before I did the test?

[Fannie]

They told me they were ok before I did the test?

http://www.genomeweb.com/node/914177?emc=el&m=349922&l=2&v=89ffa15415

'Decode Genetics' Q4 Revenues Rise 21 Percent as Cash Dwindles
April 01, 2009

NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News)

[burto]

Hmm, better download all the results quick! At least the test I paid for has been done and received. I hope they sort something out

[DKF]

Need to Update Ancestry Painting, and Paint the X Chromosome

All,

I have begun to agitate for improvements to the Ancestry Painting feature at
23andme. Nothing has changed since day one, which also means that they have yet to get around to painting the X chromosome. It is all static and will
remain so unless people step forward and express their opinions so that the
scientists can convince the resource allocators that it is imperative that
something be done to address this problem of they will lose business. I
have specifically not ordered testing of my uncle until I have direct
confirmation that 23andme understands that there are probably as many
customers interested in the ancestry component as the medical and trait
components (which are truly of no interest to me - the only thing I learned
that tweaked some curiosity was that I have a sprinter genotype).

When the present 23andme Ancestry Painting feature was designed only the
HapMap data was available to them - and to date there have been no
upgrades. Thus at the moment the Chinese and Japanese are proxies for all
East Asians, South Sea Islanders, and Native Americans. Their algorithm
appears to be quite good, such that there are unlikely to be many false
positives (a severe problem with decodeme data analysis). The problem is
that there are an unknown number of false negatives. My analysis (case
study) via Anders Palsen using the 52 worldwide populations via the
HGDP-CEPH database uses a much more robust approach to the search for
evidence of minority Native American. It succeeded in completely removing
any African on the X (decodeme had attributed 8% to this source) - there was nothing there, only evidence of a number of blocks shared by Africans and Europeans but not East Asians. Anders also found evidence of millions of bp matches to East Asians but only from the northeast, and to Native
Americans. He usedthe PLINK phasing program, and validating it by a direct
inspection with Excel formula. Hence my 100% European seen in the 23andme
Ancestry Painting is incorrect, and according to the analysis by Anders is
almost exactly what is expected based on the paper trail which includes
multiple sources.

Anders found 6.5% Native American (via Yakut and Xibo proxies) on the X, and a further 6.5% not found in any European sample and in the region flanking the above. This is likely a founder effect comparable (perhaps) to mtDNA haplogroup X2a found in the Great Lakes area.

The above brings up another point. At present there is not a representative
sample for the region where my ancestors lived, and so it is necessary to
employ the best proxies. Since I don't envision any change soon, at least
they could use northeastern Asian tribes instead of Chinese. I agree that
the approach they use will allow some percentage of the minority ancestry to
be caught in the net - but how much slips through?

I have started a thread at the 23andme community:
https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/741/.

Please use this or write to 23andme directly if you feel as I do that it is
high time that the company address the needs of those of us interested in
autosomal and X ancestry. If they do not receive a flood of "constructive
criticism" they will come to the conclusion that we are all happy as clams
and put their efforts into beefing up other parts of their product. Only a
concerted effort by all of us will work. I know that the scientists are
willing and able, but the company needs to know that there is an interest or
"demand" out there for improving and upgrading the Ancestry Painting.
Thanks.

[burto]

Hi DKF,
How did you work out your X values were 12.5% Native American as it says on your signature? What did DeCodeMe give you on your autosomal and X painting if you don't mind me asking?

[DKF]

Hi DKF,
How did you work out your X values were 12.5% Native American as it says on your signature? What did DeCodeMe give you on your autosomal and X painting if you don't mind me asking?

Decodeme can't do it (significant false positives) and at present 23andme can't do it (significant false negatives). Like with so many other things in relation to genetic genealogy, the customers often have to lead the way. In my case Anders Palsen used the HGDP-CEPH worldwide samples of 52 populations, the program PLINK (for phasing and analysis), and direct Excel formulae to find exact matches. Hence at the moment this work is unique and a tribute to the skills of Anders. There is no reason why 23andme could not use the same or similar approach - it would, however, take some development time, although I know that the scientists are familiar with all and more approaches. We need to write and, I don't know if "complain" is the correct word, but request a more robust analysis than the very out of date version that is installed on their website now. They can do better, and we can then be more assured that they will find not only minority ancestry, but also provide correct estimates of percentages, and exact positions on each chromosome.

At least at the moment every European tested is not going to have say 6% Asian and African - this is a significant flaw in the decodeme offering - it almost guarantees minority ancestry - but entirely false. Any real ancestry of this type is either not there because of poor reference samples, or is embedded in so much noise it is virtually impossible to find the signal.