23andme

[marvallen]

If one has only one NA ancester, how many generations would be required to yield non-significant measurements in inheirted NA autosomal results?

[rainbow]

Hi Maria,
Glad you're pleased with your results, but I don't understand the bit about being at least 500 years ago...your ancestor was roughly 350 years ago?
And if it's from the 1400's backwards then surely you had even more ancestors that were pure blood in the 1400's?

Um, yeah. That was what I was thinking but didn't say anything before. That math isn't right. If 23andme detects stuff within the last 500 years like you said Maria, then it should have picked up your Powa....Native American, from 350 years ago.

Unless you meant to say that it only picks up the last 300 years?

[rainbow]

To Maria (and anyone else who took the tests),
If I took admixture tests from three different companies and each result was different, I would be very unhappy and suspicious of which one is right, if any. Your decodeme and 23andme don't even match up/confirm each other.
I noticed you dropped your ABD from your signature and have only decodemeand 23andme.
Your ABD said 10% Native American & 90% European, your decodeme says mostly European with some Asian and some African, and your 23andme says 100% European.
That is like going to 3 different psychics and they all tell you something different.

[DKF]

Um, yeah. That was what I was thinking but didn't say anything before. That math isn't right. If 23andme detects stuff within the last 500 years like you said Maria, then it should have picked up your Powa....Native American, from 350 years ago.

Unless you meant to say that it only picks up the last 300 years?

Actually that is not correct. The most sophisticated of programs (not used by 23andme yet) just barely caught my autosomal NA ancestry (X was 12.5%) of a few million base pairs on 4 autosomes which according to the in house research done by 23andme is about right.

I worked with a Norwegian expert in this type of analysis who used a powerful phasing program called PLINK and also Excel formulae (as a validation procedure) to compare my matches to all of those in the HDDP-CEPH worldwide panel of 52 groups. At present 23andme is not set up to do this analysis and only use the Japanese and Chinese groups from the HapMap series (not a great reference group for NA to say the least).

After 8 generations back (e.g., NA ancestor born circa 1750), there is virtually zero chance of seeing any single NA ancestor in the autosomal profile. Of course by chance sometimes an individual will defy the odds - but one's chances of seeing this is only likely if multiple members of the family are tested - increasing the sample size.

23andme will be using more sophisticated analyses over the next few months, so we just have to wait a bit and all of those who took this test will be able to reap the benefits.

[DKF]

If one has only one NA ancester, how many generations would be required to yield non-significant measurements in inheirted NA autosomal results?

See my posting below. What is imperative though is to have a paper trail to give the DNA results meaning. Even with the most sophisticated of tests there is a possibility of noise when one is plumbing the earliest depths of one's ancestral tree. The results need to "fit" the genealogy, and what is known of the Asian ancestors of Native Americans (closest kin the Yakut and those from Lake Baikal and Manchuria). There are no NA reference samples from most of North America.

[marvallen]

I think that even 5 or 6 generations would "dilute out" and yield a non-measurable event with current technonogy.

[jaranta]

23andm3

Maria,
I am awaiting my 23andme results. In ABDNA my results were 85% Euro, 5% NA, 5% EA, 5% SSA. It will be interesting to see what 23andme says.
The explanation from 23andme that you posted doesn't make sense to me. On their web site, they give examples of ancestry painting for a Native American person and African American man and woman. Both include admixtures of Euro, AA, NA. According to the explanation given to you by 23andme, shouldn't those people have gotten 100% NA or 100% SSA -- since their mixture took place within the last 500 years?
Judy

Hi Burto,

Here is what 23andme says about results in reference to European, Asian and African:
Before about 500 years, long distance travel was extremely difficult. Most peolpe never traveled more than a few dozen miles from the place of where they were born...As a result, people of European heritage were found exclusivley in Europe, people of African decent were mostly limited to that continent, and so forth...
With the advent of European colonialism, however, people began traveling between continents..As a result they often had children thousands of miles from the places of where they themselves were born..
Comtempary Aisa, African and Europe-and North America, South America and Australia for that matter-are now home to people of diverse genetic backgrounds.. Thus where your chromosomes sit relative to "Asia," "Africa" and "Europe" in terms of Ancestry Painting is quite likly to be very distant from where you actually live.. Your ancestry painting results should be understood to mean Asia, Africa and Europe before the era of intercontinental travel...about 500 years ago.


I didn't relize that it wouldn't show my native heritage (which was about 350 years ago) unless I was born on the North American continent earlier than 500 years ago... The test was never meant to do that..
My ancestor, John Waugh, did not come to Virginia till around 1650 or so.. I know that he had 2 sons with my Potowomecke 8th great grandmother, The 2nd son John, born around 1660, is my line. So if you have the $1000, and you want to break your heritage down, it is best to go with DeCodeMe... I will go with DeCodeMe's results.... But I was pleased with the price, the turnaround time and the amount of markers I recieved for that price! I am still glad I took the test...


Maria

[DKF]

Maria,
I am awaiting my 23andme results. In ABDNA my results were 85% Euro, 5% NA, 5% EA, 5% SSA. It will be interesting to see what 23andme says.
The explanation from 23andme that you posted doesn't make sense to me. On their web site, they give examples of ancestry painting for a Native American person and African American man and woman. Both include admixtures of Euro, AA, NA. According to the explanation given to you by 23andme, shouldn't those people have gotten 100% NA or 100% SSA -- since their mixture took place within the last 500 years?
Judy

The results can be essentially meaningless without genealogical support. How do the ABDNA results conform to your paper trail?

[jaranta]

paper trail

DKF,
My paper trail so far is unrevealing. I have an oral tradition: my great-grandfather said that he was part "American Indian." The family did not believe him, but are now giving it second thoughts since my DNA test.

In U.S. census records going back to 1790, my ggrandfather and his ancestors are all listed as "white." So far in town records and other records I have not been able to find documentation of any ancestor's non-white ethnicity. I have found one mid-18th-century record describing someone with my ancestor's name as an "Indian." I haven't been able to prove yet that this person was my ancestor.

One reason I took the DNA test is that I figured it would be hard to document NA ancestry in the paper records.
Judy

[DKF]

DKF,
My paper trail so far is unrevealing. I have an oral tradition: my great-grandfather said that he was part "American Indian." The family did not believe him, but are now giving it second thoughts since my DNA test.

In U.S. census records going back to 1790, my ggrandfather and his ancestors are all listed as "white." So far in town records and other records I have not been able to find documentation of any ancestor's non-white ethnicity. I have found one mid-18th-century record describing someone with my ancestor's name as an "Indian." I haven't been able to prove yet that this person was my ancestor.

One reason I took the DNA test is that I figured it would be hard to document NA ancestry in the paper records.
Judy

Judy,

23andme is well aware of those in your "situation", I specifically spoke with their scientists about the matter. There are very large numbers of Colonial Americans who have only oral traditions to rely upon. I am, as a rule, uncomfortable about cross validating DNA results with family stories, but if the DNA evidence is unquestionable, then I guess it would certainly bolster the content of the oral history.

They are working to parse out Native American information from the data without relying on Chinese and Japanese data as is presently the case. Hopefully within a couple of months to a year we will be able to look at our "Ancestry Painting" and see the more realistic and accurate percentage of NA.

I have spoken with them about the importance of collecting samples from the regions of greatest interest to the largest number of customers, which is not at present the Brazilian rainforest, so we need to have samples from NA groups of the Great Lakes for example. They fully understand the rationale and will do what they can within the limitations of resource allocation. I hope to participate in the collection of the samples from the area where I am from originally (Ontario, Canada) - it is often better to have folks with connections to a location sell the idea of, in this case, the importance of being able to track NA ancestors back to specific locations in Siberia and China - or something of that nature.

[jaranta]

Na dna

DKF,
Are you a geneticist? As far as collecting North Amer. Native DNA, I've heard that many North Amer. Native people refuse to contribute their DNA. Also, I've heard that many Native people reject the idea that their ancestors came from Asia across the Bering Strait. Many believe that their nations originated in North America and nowhere else, so would they be interested in "the importance of being able to track NA ancestors back to specific locations in Siberia and China," as you propose?
Is your percentage of NA ancestry (as in your signature) a percentage of your MtDNA or a percentage of your entire DNA? Too many questions???
Judy

Judy,

23andme is well aware of those in your "situation", I specifically spoke with their scientists about the matter. There are very large numbers of Colonial Americans who have only oral traditions to rely upon. I am, as a rule, uncomfortable about cross validating DNA results with family stories, but if the DNA evidence is unquestionable, then I guess it would certainly bolster the content of the oral history.

They are working to parse out Native American information from the data without relying on Chinese and Japanese data as is presently the case. Hopefully within a couple of months to a year we will be able to look at our "Ancestry Painting" and see the more realistic and accurate percentage of NA.

I have spoken with them about the importance of collecting samples from the regions of greatest interest to the largest number of customers, which is not at present the Brazilian rainforest, so we need to have samples from NA groups of the Great Lakes for example. They fully understand the rationale and will do what they can within the limitations of resource allocation. I hope to participate in the collection of the samples from the area where I am from originally (Ontario, Canada) - it is often better to have folks with connections to a location sell the idea of, in this case, the importance of being able to track NA ancestors back to specific locations in Siberia and China - or something of that nature.

[Deirwha]

DKF,
Are you a geneticist?
Judy

Something from DKF to check out. He is one of our experts as well as one of our colleagues in figuring out the grand journey:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

[DKF]

DKF,
Are you a geneticist? As far as collecting North Amer. Native DNA, I've heard that many North Amer. Native people refuse to contribute their DNA. Also, I've heard that many Native people reject the idea that their ancestors came from Asia across the Bering Strait. Many believe that their nations originated in North America and nowhere else, so would they be interested in "the importance of being able to track NA ancestors back to specific locations in Siberia and China," as you propose?
Is your percentage of NA ancestry (as in your signature) a percentage of your MtDNA or a percentage of your entire DNA? Too many questions???
Judy

Of course there are some who believe (or claim to believe) that otter swam down to get mud to put on the back of turtle to cushion the fall of Sky Woman and so on - but much of that, at least in the east, is a new return to old ways. The political factions are extremely complex and relate not only to religion and culture but to land claims, casino gambling and ...... (at least where I am from). So some will be interested, many not, and that is ok. I know some who will be antagonistic from the git go, and others who will be keen to learn. It is only the latter who are the "target group". It is really not much different in any community - some will never donate a DNA sample (e.g., there are not enough safeguards to keep insurance companies from learning the results), and others who become captivated by the quest.

Since you asked, my doctorate is in Medical Sciences, and genetics is just one of many topics addressed in my training - many, many years ago. So I am starting from pretty close to square one just like many others here. What was current in the 80s is pretty old fashioned stuff now. My Y-DNA is English, and mtDNA is Scottish. My X chromosome (which has a unique inheritance pattern that favors mother - son - mother - son etc. ancestral combinations) retains more traces of NA ancestors than any other part of the genome. With some distant cousins doubtless it would be the autosomes, possibly 15% or so. The NA mtDNA line (in our branch) died out in the early 1900s; and it is not clear that the chiefly lineage today is via the same lineal descent.

[Deirwha]

Modesty

... genetics is just one of many topics addressed in my training - many, many years ago. So I am starting from pretty close to square one just like many others here.

Maybe so, but you have had a significant impact on the understanding of U152 unless I have been reading all the wrong authorities and my administrator has mislead me.

[DKF]

Maybe so, but you have had a significant impact on the understanding of U152 unless I have been reading all the wrong authorities and my administrator has mislead me.

Thanks Deirwha, but I had a running start being the second person discovered to be U152 and, thanks to 23andme, the second L2 and first L20. So I developed a niche for myself.

In the old days many of us were Rennaisance folk, but today things are so diverse and specialized. The younger generation is, however, beginning to eclipse many of us old timers. For example people such as Vince Vizachero is truly a super star of the field today, and his skill set extends across a variety of topics in genetic genealogy. Rather than get left in the dust people like me can at least make a contribution by specializing. When Jim Wilson and I started EthnoAncestry in 2004 we had to be jacks of all trades. Now with chip technology and giant leaps in technology this is much more difficult - and my hats off to those who can keep in the forefront of all areas (Dr. Ann Turner being one of them). So for me, back to my obsessive quest to learn more about U152 and the X-DNA of Native Americans and whatever tweaks my curiosity for the moment. One thing is clear, I can not possibly ever be bored during my retirement. What a fantastic "hobby" - and I know a bit about what is coming down the pike and things are going to get even more absorbing very soon.