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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow
    I would say that IF you have a GD of 0 or 1 to someone whose surname is the same or a variant of your it is significant

    Conventional wisdom is that more than 37 markers is needed for a R1b match but my men have 37/37 and we are very comfortable with that..

    Who is your 25/25 match with? Is it a variant to your surname?

    You do need to get to 37 markers I think..
    I have 19 25/25 matches, NONE of which are a variant of/anywhere near my surname.

    of the 19...
    3 are O'Brien/Bryan
    3 are Butler
    2 are West

    All of the above people/surnames have (Y37) listed next to their names, and I don't have ANY 37/37 matches.

    My only GD2 37 marker match is an IRONS, with whom I do have an exact 25 marker match.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by McCray
      I have 19 25/25 matches, NONE of which are a variant of/anywhere near my surname.

      of the 19...
      3 are O'Brien/Bryan
      3 are Butler
      2 are West

      All of the above people/surnames have (Y37) listed next to their names, and I don't have ANY 37/37 matches.

      My only GD2 37 marker match is an IRONS, with whom I do have an exact 25 marker match.
      Hmmm.. any Irons in any of the records that you have done?

      I would also ask the McCray surname admin. if O'Brien is a related family..

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow
        Hmmm.. any Irons in any of the records that you have done?

        I would also ask the McCray surname admin. if O'Brien is a related family..
        Hi there. Sorry for lack of response, I've been preoccupied with 2 snowstorms, Friday and today, here in Mass. Anyway, no I've never encountered Irons, however I just e-mailed my GD2 37 marker match, we only on DYS-456, where he is 15 and I am 14, and CDY b, where I am 37 and he 38. He is also R1b1b2.

        We'll see what I get for a response.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by McCray
          Hi there. Sorry for lack of response, I've been preoccupied with 2 snowstorms, Friday and today, here in Mass. Anyway, no I've never encountered Irons, however I just e-mailed my GD2 37 marker match, we only on DYS-456, where he is 15 and I am 14, and CDY b, where I am 37 and he 38. He is also R1b1b2.

          We'll see what I get for a response.
          Reason I asked is that there are men of that name in Delaware where my folks are in the late 1680s.
          However they seem to be in MA even earlier( 1640s) and are still found in both places.
          Are 456 and CDY b fast markers? I am not sure.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow
            Reason I asked is that there are men of that name in Delaware where my folks are in the late 1680s.
            However they seem to be in MA even earlier( 1640s) and are still found in both places.
            Are 456 and CDY b fast markers? I am not sure.
            Hmm interesting. I did a google search and found a rootsweb post about this, according to the list this woman made, both DYS 456 and cdyA/B are fast markers. Is this significant? The post says the markers are color coded fast or slow on FTDNA< however I see no color coding- was this removed? How much "fast"er is the mutation rate of these "fast" markers.

            Another question - do the markers earlier in the sequence have more weight in terms of matching with another individual than the later markers, i.e if I were to have a mismatch in the second marker (DYS 390) in FTDNA's sequence, but am identical on the rest of the markers, is that the same chance of sharing a recent common ancestor with someone with whom you only have a mismatch on, say, the 25th marker (464d)? I hope you understand what I'm saying-a little hard to word.

            Thanks very much

            Comment


            • #21
              [QUOTE=McCray]Hmm interesting. I did a google search and found a rootsweb post about this, according to the list this woman made, both DYS 456 and cdyA/B are fast markers. Is this significant? The post says the markers are color coded fast or slow on FTDNA


              Fast marker are ones that mutate more commonly and sooner..therefore sometimes they do not "count" as mismatches as much..and people who only have those mutational differences are still possibly related..

              I am not sure about the rest of your question but I think that some mismatches can rule you out on relationship or at least move you further away in the generational time.

              Some markers also are significant in determining haplotype and Clades.

              Comment


              • #22
                Hello again. I got a very interesting email yesterday from David Wright, who runs the website for the Irish-Type-III DNA. He pointed me to his site and told me that I was a member of this type, it looks like I differ from their modal by only 1 on CDY-A and B and on DYS-570 (based upon my 37 markers).
                http://www.irishtype3dna.org/MarkerSpread.htm

                Anyway, this explains why I have so many matches, all of these families in this modal are related, Butlers, O'briens, and even McGraths, along with a number of other surnames with whom I have matches..
                http://www.irishtype3dna.org/Surnames.htm


                I have more info to sort through, but looks to be some very interesting stuff.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by McCray
                  I did a google search and found a rootsweb post about this, according to the list this woman made, both DYS 456 and cdyA/B are fast markers. Is this significant? The post says the markers are color coded fast or slow on FTDNA< however I see no color coding- was this removed? How much "fast"er is the mutation rate of these "fast" markers.

                  Another question - do the markers earlier in the sequence have more weight in terms of matching with another individual than the later markers, i.e if I were to have a mismatch in the second marker (DYS 390) in FTDNA's sequence, but am identical on the rest of the markers, is that the same chance of sharing a recent common ancestor with someone with whom you only have a mismatch on, say, the 25th marker (464d)?
                  The markers aren't color-coded at FTDNA, just on the websites for the surname, geographic, and lineage projects.

                  CDY a and b are the fastest-mutating Y-DNA markers known (to my knowledge), so a mismatch on either of those markers (or both) isn't especially significant (i.e., it doesn't in itself show that you are especially unrelated to the mismatched person). A perfect match on both of them, however, is potentially very significant, provided that most of the rest of the markers match.

                  Here's a table that will show you the relative mutation rates:

                  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../ratestuff.htm

                  The position in the results sequence doesn't have any bearing on how fast that marker mutates. You just have to look them up individually, or use the color-coding as a rough guide.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by McCray
                    Hello again. I got a very interesting email yesterday from David Wright, who runs the website for the Irish-Type-III DNA. He pointed me to his site and told me that I was a member of this type, it looks like I differ from their modal by only 1 on CDY-A and B and on DYS-570 (based upon my 37 markers).
                    http://www.irishtype3dna.org/MarkerSpread.htm

                    Anyway, this explains why I have so many matches, all of these families in this modal are related, Butlers, O'briens, and even McGraths, along with a number of other surnames with whom I have matches..
                    http://www.irishtype3dna.org/Surnames.htm
                    DYS570 is another fast-moving marker, so it's not surprising that you differ from the modal on that marker.

                    If you have a ton of matches at the 37-marker level, then I would definitely upgrade to 67 markers if I were you. That will significantly narrow down your list. Some of your 37-marker matches (mainly the ones at the higher genetic distance numbers) may turn out to not be matches at all... but you'll only be able to figure that out for those people also tested at the 67-marker level (i.e., if they have "(Y67)" listed after their names in your Y-DNA Matches list).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GhostX
                      DYS570 is another fast-moving marker, so it's not surprising that you differ from the modal on that marker.

                      If you have a ton of matches at the 37-marker level, then I would definitely upgrade to 67 markers if I were you. That will significantly narrow down your list. Some of your 37-marker matches (mainly the ones at the higher genetic distance numbers) may turn out to not be matches at all... but you'll only be able to figure that out for those people also tested at the 67-marker level (i.e., if they have "(Y67)" listed after their names in your Y-DNA Matches list).
                      Yes, this is why I am going back and forth with the upgrading idea.
                      I don't actually have any exact 37 marker matches, only GD-2, 3, and 4. My 1 GD 2 match has the Y-67 test, as do 7 of the 9 GD 3 and 4 matches.

                      With the GD2 37 marker match, surname Irons, our 1-step mismatches are on DYS-456 and CDY-b.

                      An upgrade could certainly further prove or disprove relation, just not sure if it's worth it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Irons/ Kenirons

                        Originally posted by McCray
                        Yes, this is why I am going back and forth with the upgrading idea.
                        I don't actually have any exact 37 marker matches, only GD-2, 3, and 4. My 1 GD 2 match has the Y-67 test, as do 7 of the 9 GD 3 and 4 matches.

                        With the GD2 37 marker match, surname Irons, our 1-step mismatches are on DYS-456 and CDY-b.

                        An upgrade could certainly further prove or disprove relation, just not sure if it's worth it.
                        I have heard that there is an oral tradition in Thomond that Irons, and its variant Kenirons, are "corrupted" English phonetic renderings of the Irish Mac an Airchinnigh. That name is better known in English as MacNerney, which is an old Dail gCais name.

                        But than again I think that the MacCraith poets to the O'Briens are also an old Dail gCais family.

                        So convergence among these closely related surnames may not be out of the question.

                        Sean/Jack

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Clochaire
                          I have heard that there is an oral tradition in Thomond that Irons, and its variant Kenirons, are "corrupted" English phonetic renderings of the Irish Mac an Airchinnigh. That name is better known in English as MacNerney, which is an old Dail gCais name.

                          But than again I think that the MacCraith poets to the O'Briens are also an old Dail gCais family.

                          So convergence among these closely related surnames may not be out of the question.

                          Sean/Jack
                          Yup, David Wright's site http://www.irishtype3dna.org/Surnames.htm talks about the poets/relation.

                          If only my great grandfather's father was Polish or something, I could at least cut out the possibility of him being a McCray! I just had to match with a common group

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Perhaps a breakthrough?...
                            My closest 37 marker match, the GD 2 is one with the surname IRONS. We only differ by 1 each on DYS-456 and CDYb.

                            My great grandfather Leonard, whose father I am looking for, in his obituary states Roxbury,MA as a birthplace (this is now, and was at the time of his birth, a section of Boston).

                            Leonard McCray (the surname he goes by, but appears to be his mother's surname) was born according to the SSDI and his cemetery burial record on August 21, 1905.

                            In the 1904 Boston Directory, there are a few IRONS living in "Rox" http://content.ancestry.com/browse/v...&ln=irons&st=g

                            Two of them live in the same house, Edward W. and James F. Per the 1900 census, James is the father, Edward his son. They were both born in Scotland, Edward in 1880.

                            On the 1910 Census however, Edward is an inmate at the Massachusetts Reformatory in Concord. He is listed as "single" on both the 1900 and 1910 censuses. By 1920, he had moved to Michigan and was married.

                            Tomorrow I am going to contact the Boston Police Department Records dept. and see if they have a record for Edward.

                            If he was, in fact, the father, it would make a lot of sense - Leonard's mother didn't want to give her son the name of a criminal, who was "out of the picture" anyway, and gave him her own last name.
                            Another possibility is that Leonard was a child of rape, which I may be able to find out with the phone call to the Boston PD.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by McCray
                              Perhaps a breakthrough?...
                              My closest 37 marker match, the GD 2 is one with the surname IRONS. We only differ by 1 each on DYS-456 and CDYb.

                              My great grandfather Leonard, whose father I am looking for, in his obituary states Roxbury,MA as a birthplace (this is now, and was at the time of his birth, a section of Boston).

                              Leonard McCray (the surname he goes by, but appears to be his mother's surname) was born according to the SSDI and his cemetery burial record on August 21, 1905.

                              In the 1904 Boston Directory, there are a few IRONS living in "Rox" http://content.ancestry.com/browse/v...&ln=irons&st=g

                              Two of them live in the same house, Edward W. and James F. Per the 1900 census, James is the father, Edward his son. They were both born in Scotland, Edward in 1880.

                              On the 1910 Census however, Edward is an inmate at the Massachusetts Reformatory in Concord. He is listed as "single" on both the 1900 and 1910 censuses. By 1920, he had moved to Michigan and was married.

                              Tomorrow I am going to contact the Boston Police Department Records dept. and see if they have a record for Edward.

                              If he was, in fact, the father, it would make a lot of sense - Leonard's mother didn't want to give her son the name of a criminal, who was "out of the picture" anyway, and gave him her own last name.
                              Another possibility is that Leonard was a child of rape, which I may be able to find out with the phone call to the Boston PD.
                              There are so many possibilities.... are you absolutely positive that Leonard's fathers surname wasn't McCray? I hope you can figure out the answers to your ancestry on the McCray line .

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by spruithean
                                There are so many possibilities.... are you absolutely positive that Leonard's fathers surname wasn't McCray? I hope you can figure out the answers to your ancestry on the McCray line .
                                Nope I'm not absolutely positive. However, here are my reasons to believe that his mother was a McCray...
                                a.) Leonard's only living child, with whom I spoke a few weeks ago, said that his mother "lived on Linden Street with her sisters.. one was Nellie...". Sarah "Sadie" McCray did live on Linden Street in Springfield with all of her sisters, and until her 1929 death-her mother. It seems pretty unlikely that she would know all of this information randomly, though I'm not sure from whom she received the info - probably Leonard or her mother, or one of her siblings.

                                b.) On Leonard's death record it has nothing under "father" but under mother it says simply "Sarah"

                                c.) My grandfather (Leonard's son)'s baby book, in the little family tree area, lists Leonard's mother as Sadie - http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2079/babybooknq9.jpg (I'm not sure where the William McCray came from, if only one of the other 3 children were alive today to tell me more. My grandfather McCray died in 1978.)

                                d.) On the 2 censuses on which Leonard is a juvenile, in 1910 and 1920, it lists the birthplace of his father as either Unknown or USA, while they consistently list the mother's birthplace as Massachusetts.

                                So, you can see with all of those SADIEs and SARAHs on these documents, it seems to add up. Also, Sarah/Sadie and their McCrays were really the only McCrays in Springfield at the time of Leonard's birth in 1905.

                                Thanks for the support, I'll certainly need it!

                                Comment

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