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Irish to Scotland after Norman Invasion

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  • Irish to Scotland after Norman Invasion

    In my constant persuit for reasons why my Y line matches up with Scots, I have come upon something in Irish History I was unaware of. Apparently after the Normans took control of East Ulster in 1177, many Ulster Irish Royal families fled to Scotland and are the basis of some of the Scots Clans.
    The link below shows information on the MacLea-Livingstone Clan which I believe has the same root as me among the "Horse Tribe" Ui Eochadha. My name in Irish is MacEochadha, MacEochaidh.

    http://www.clanmclea.co.uk/Dunsleve.htm

    I also am thinking that the name "Greenlee", which I match 34/34 and 25/25 could have come from MacDhuinnsleibhe which is mentioned in the link. Perhaps only Jack will see the possibility in pronounciation, but I see it as possible. MacDhuinnsleibhe (Macgweenleave). "Macgweenleave" to Greenlee seems just as plausable as MacDhuinnsleibhe to MacLea!

    Thanks, Miles Kehoe

  • #2
    Mac Duinnshleibhe (anglicised Dunlevy)were a royal branch of the Ulidia until the twelfth century.They migrated to Tirconnell under the O'Donnells and followed those who went to north Connacht in 1602.A branch went to Scotland,where they became Dunlop and Dunleif.

    Slan

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Oriel
      Mac Duinnshleibhe (anglicised Dunlevy)were a royal branch of the Ulidia until the twelfth century.They migrated to Tirconnell under the O'Donnells and followed those who went to north Connacht in 1602.A branch went to Scotland,where they became Dunlop and Dunleif.

      Slan
      And I match up with my share of Dunlops and Dunbars. I also match uo with O'Rourkes and Egans from north Connaught.

      I think this break-up of east Ulster after the Normans in 1177 is something to consider in DNA research.

      Thanks, Miles

      P.S. I forgot that you would also be familiar with the Irish pronounciation!
      M.K.
      Last edited by kilrush98; 5 December 2008, 05:49 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by kilrush98
        And I match up with my share of Dunlops and Dunbars. I also match uo with O'Rourkes and Egans from north Connaught.

        I think this break-up of east Ulster after the Normans in 1177 is something to consider in DNA research.

        Thanks, Miles

        P.S. I forgot that you would also be familiar with the Irish pronounciation!
        M.K.
        Hey, Miles.

        Ciaran gives a good summary of MacDhuinnshleibes.

        Maybe you mentioned before and I've forgotten. But how much do you know about this Greenlee fellow's line? My thought is that, absent strong contradictory info, it's euqally possible that he is actually a MacEochaidh. I'd be curious to know whether he has roots near any of the big centres of Irish immigration, like Glasgow, or if he has any other significant matches.

        Maybe I'm splittin' hairs, but based on what I know now, I'm not sure that you can exclude the possibility that the Loch Garman Greenlee's are somehow a branch of the MacEochaidh's, and this fellow descends from an Irish immigrant.

        Jack

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Clochaire
          Hey, Miles.

          Ciaran gives a good summary of MacDhuinnshleibes.

          Maybe you mentioned before and I've forgotten. But how much do you know about this Greenlee fellow's line? My thought is that, absent strong contradictory info, it's euqally possible that he is actually a MacEochaidh. I'd be curious to know whether he has roots near any of the big centres of Irish immigration, like Glasgow, or if he has any other significant matches.

          Maybe I'm splittin' hairs, but based on what I know now, I'm not sure that you can exclude the possibility that the Loch Garman Greenlee's are somehow a branch of the MacEochaidh's, and this fellow descends from an Irish immigrant.

          Jack
          Unfortunately, Jack, I know nothing about the 34/34 Greenlee or the 25/25 Greenlee. other than the latter said his family was from Ireland, but he didn't know from where. The 34/34 guy hasn't returned my email and it looks as if he hasn't been on dna.Ancestry.com for a while.

          I have researched the connections between the name Greenlee and the Scots name Greenlaw, and I don't find a connection. I do find Greenlee spelled Greenle"y" in the same Irish Parish. The names McKinley and McGinley are also supposed to descend from MacDhuinnshleibhe, and are of course Ulster names. Ginley and Greenlee are not that far apart and may show a common connection to the MacDhuinnshleibhe Ui Eochadha.

          I will get my nine marker results nback from FTDNA in January, and then I'll really know how close of a match I have with number 34!

          Slan go foill, Miles

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          • #6
            Originally posted by kilrush98
            Unfortunately, Jack, I know nothing about the 34/34 Greenlee or the 25/25 Greenlee. other than the latter said his family was from Ireland, but he didn't know from where. The 34/34 guy hasn't returned my email and it looks as if he hasn't been on dna.Ancestry.com for a while.

            I have researched the connections between the name Greenlee and the Scots name Greenlaw, and I don't find a connection. I do find Greenlee spelled Greenle"y" in the same Irish Parish. The names McKinley and McGinley are also supposed to descend from MacDhuinnshleibhe, and are of course Ulster names. Ginley and Greenlee are not that far apart and may show a common connection to the MacDhuinnshleibhe Ui Eochadha.

            I will get my nine marker results nback from FTDNA in January, and then I'll really know how close of a match I have with number 34!

            Slan go foill, Miles
            Beir bua, a chara!

            I've played around with various combinations of Irish root words that might approximate the sound of "Greenlee" in various dialects.

            But no lightening stikes yet. Biggest problem is that I don't know much about the old Leinster dialects.

            MagCrionn'laoigh, Mac an laoighidh--nope comin' up with nothing.

            Regarding the MacEochaidh themselves, I know that some branches gained fame as poets. Any known for the medical arts?

            Jack

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Clochaire
              Beir bua, a chara!

              I've played around with various combinations of Irish root words that might approximate the sound of "Greenlee" in various dialects.

              But no lightening stikes yet. Biggest problem is that I don't know much about the old Leinster dialects.

              MagCrionn'laoigh, Mac an laoighidh--nope comin' up with nothing.

              Regarding the MacEochaidh themselves, I know that some branches gained fame as poets. Any known for the medical arts?

              Jack
              A Shean, a chara,

              Poets yes, but no physicians. The name MacClea is also thought to be from Mac an Leagha (as I'm sure you've discovered!), as is a theory for MacLain, but we were only known as poets to the O'Byrnes.

              As far as I know, the old Leinster dialect is much more similar to the Munster dialect than either Connaught or Ulster. My dad's uncle who learned Irish was a stickler for the Munster dialect. The fact is, the root of many old Irish names may be lost to us.

              However, as far as DNA goes, I am inclined to think that the Irish of Ulster have far more in common genetically with Scotland than with the rest of Ireland, save, perhaps north Connaught. I also certainly believe that there is no DNA difference between the Keoghs of Ui Maine and myself. Wouldn't it be nice if one of them would test! There is a Keough from Cavan who will test this summer. Close enough, I suppose.

              Go raibh maith agat, Miles

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              • #8
                Kit was mailed off yesterday. I'll be looking for results on 67 marker and mt dna plus.

                Should be interesting.

                Paternal surname is Roddy.
                Maternal side is French.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Enodoch
                  Kit was mailed off yesterday. I'll be looking for results on 67 marker and mt dna plus.

                  Should be interesting.

                  Paternal surname is Roddy.
                  Maternal side is French.
                  That's a lot of information for a first time tester! We had a Roddy familiy in our Irish neighbourhood of San Francisco. Quite a rowdy bunch!

                  My guess is that you'll be R1b1b2a1b, and if you get a deep clade test, you'll most likely be L21+.

                  My mom's mtDNA line was from the west coast of France, and it is T*. I really should have more testing done on that line.

                  Failte! Miles

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lots of testing because it was on a super sale.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just received an e-mail that the kit arrived today.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How does Gaelic orthography work?

                        Off Topic, but...
                        Several gaelic speakers are posting here and I might get some explanation on what has been a mystery to me for years, Gaelic orthography using the Latin alphabet.

                        Duinnshleibhe (anglicised Dunleavy) is a good sample.

                        My question is, how would a reader know it is pronounced like Dunleavy?

                        Is the "sh" in the middle always silent, and if so why is it there at all??

                        The "bh" is clearly one accepted way of rendering "v" in Latin letters when the letter "v" is not in the given alphabet. It works for representing Anglic "v" from other tongues too. (In Welsh "v"is Latin-graphed as "single "f", the Anglic "f" sound being rendered by doubling, into the Welsh "ff" ).

                        Another puzzle, he "ea " sound in "dunleavy" reverses the "ei" in "....leibhe".

                        In some languages it is possible for a non-speaker to pronounce most words fairly correctly from only a knowledge of the orthography, as in Russian, Greek and Spanish. Even Welsh. But Gaelic? I am told you can only learn to read it if you already know the words in everyday speech.
                        Any light on the subject?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How does Gaelic orthography work?

                          Off Topic, but...
                          Several gaelic speakers are posting here and I might get some explanation on what has been a mystery to me for years, Gaelic orthography using the Latin alphabet.

                          Duinnshleibhe (anglicised Dunleavy) is a good sample.

                          My question is, how would a reader know it is pronounced like Dunleavy?

                          Is the "sh" in the middle always silent, and if so why is it there at all??

                          The "bh" is clearly one accepted way of rendering "v" in Latin letters when the letter "v" is not in the given alphabet. It works for representing Anglic "v" from other tongues too. (In Welsh "v"is Latin-graphed as "single "f", the Anglic "f" sound being rendered by doubling, into the Welsh "ff" ).

                          Another puzzle, he "ea " sound in "dunleavy" reverses the "ei" in "....leibhe".

                          In some languages it is possible for a non-speaker to pronounce most words fairly correctly from only a knowledge of the orthography, as in Russian, Greek and Spanish. Even Welsh. But Gaelic? I am told you can only learn to read it if you already know the words in everyday speech.
                          Any light on the subject?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Duinnshleibhe is made up of two words. Duinn ( brown) and Sleibhe (mountain).In the old Gaelic the "s" had a dot over it instead of a "h beside it to show that it was silent. That is as simple as I can put it.The name is written in English the way it sounded to the people who would have taken the Census Returns.They were English.A lot of the time they didnt get the sound right either.

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                            • #15
                              Gaelic Brown Mountain!

                              Thanks Oriel for the beam of light!.
                              Sleibhe appears often as Sleave etc in mountaineers' guides to Scotland, where the Parliament now has a committee wrestling with how to render and read back the proceedings in the now required Gaelidh! In "Anglolatin", Dooeen-shleavy might have been more like the real stuff than dunleavy, eh?
                              Of course English orthography has a lot of idiophonics, so the results of Anglicizing any other language is misleading. Like "Lycia" pronounced English lease-ya, but the original Greek was pronounced "look-eeya"

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