How many Irish have more Scots matches?

[kilrush98]

I'm a first generation Irish-American, with a native Irish name, MacEochadha (Kehoe) and my matches are, by far, more Scots than Irish. Any other Irish guys having the same experience?

I have no matches better than 30/37 or 54/67 at those markers, but have had one 25/25 match with a Scots name "Greenlee" for a while. Recently I checked Ancestry.com and found a 34/34 match with a Greenlee unknown to the 25/25 match. The 25/25 Greenlee says his family came from Ireland, but he is uncertain about which County. There was a "Greenley" family in a parish nearby my family's parish in County Wexford, and this family emigrated to Canada in the early 1800s. I also have collateral male relations of my Y line who came to North America as early as 1880.

Any guesses about this 34/34 match and my relationship to these Greenlees? Is this looking like an NPE or do some Irish simply match up with Scots more than they do with Irish? Does anyone know which 46 markers Ancestry uses? I could order them seperately from FTDNA and see how the match hold up.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe FSH3F

[jaranta]

Irish results

I'm 3/8 Irish ancestry but received a higher DNA Tribes score for Wales than for Ireland. I have no known Welsh ancestry. I did receive some small scores for Scottish but I do have a small amount of Scot. ancestry. Maybe the distinctions among the various Celtic groups are too close to be distinguished in the tests. Judy

[kilrush98]

Hi Judy,

On this, I'm just speaking about my R1b Y line. I should have specified.

Thanks, Miles

[Clochaire]

Miles,

The identification of Greenlees in the neighboring parish is interesting. It makes me wonder if possibly your Scot friend may actually be a descendant of an Irish Kehoe immigrant to Strathclyde in 19th century. I will be interested to find out how this case develops.

Sorry if I'm recapping old news to you, but I'm in almost exactly the same boat. I'm looking for direct Y line connections to some O'Donnells from N. Mayo. But my strongest matches to date are a handful of GD 2 at 27 (Campbell, MacMeans) and GD 3 at 25 (Buchanan, Neilson, Patterson, Banks, Chisholm, Alexander, MacNeill).

While the matches are weak, there seems to be an interesting pattern. The Chisholms are an exception. Their name is associated either with Scots borders or Great Glen, and these gents' haplotypes do not appear to represent their kindred's modal.

Except for the Chisholms discussed above, the pattern is:

1. All of these names are traditionally assoicated with an area about 50 mile radius of Dumbarton, Scotland

2. All of these names also have connections with N. Ireland. Patterson, Neilson, Alexander and possibly Banks are connected w/ Donegal, supposed County of origin for the O'Donnells. MacNeills are supposedly connected w/ Derry, just a sliothar's throw from Donegal. Campbells are definitely N. Ireland, and Presbyterian Scots, but not entierly certain as to which County.

3. All of these names have plausible connections to the Ui Neill tribes of the O'Donnells, as translations of well-known Irish Gaelic names (Buchanan=O Cathain; Neilson=MacNeill; Patterson=MacPhadraig; Banks=O Bruachain). Alexanders appear to actually fit the Buchanan modal tightly at 37, so I believe they are actually Buchanans.

4. NONE of these folks have haplotypes within 1 country mile of M222 modal. Well, Banks and I are slightly closer than they, due to values at 447/437/448.

So, I may not be as well situated as you to narrowing down the events. My tentative hypothesis is that my folks took the O'Donnell name upon accepting employment as gallowglasses for the kings of Tir Chonaill, c. 1300 or so.

Equally plausible, however, is a NPE with one of these families or a related family. There is a sketchy period in my family's history c. 1880, and I'd be a bold man to say that it couldn't happen. Of course, the turmoil in Donegal in 1600's that drove the O'Donnells to Mayo in the first place could also provide a plausible scenario for such an event.

Of course, these are all weak matches, and I am not entirely convinced that current TMRCA has super-great resolution for periods 600 years or more back. I could get a 64/67 match with a fellow named Worthingtone-Smythe tomorrow and blow the whole boat out of the water.

Jack

[kilrush98]

Ah you're right Jack, we are in the same boat. There's also an Irish guy Mavity who has mostly Scots matches, but it turns out his name came to Ireland from Scotland. Perhaps our Y lines are just part of the old Dal Riata who went to Scotland. Perhaps most of the Irish lines most closely related to the Dal Riata Scots have died out in Ireland leaving you and me! People often think of the Antrim/Scotland connection, but forget how closely related Donegal and Scotland are. Perhaps we're all just one in the same.

On this Greenlee match, I just want to know exactly why or how it came about, and that might not be possible. NPE? Gallowglass fighting with the Ui Faolain Kehoes and O'Byrnes? One of my Y line's North American emigrants before my dad came over?

I think the first thing to do is see if I can find those Ancestry.com markers and test up to his 46.

Thanks, Miles

[Oriel]

I have a 100 "25"marker matches on my home page at FTDNA.I am two of the AMH modal, so I dont read too much into it.Most of the people didnt upload to ysearch, so I dont know where their ancestors came from, but are mostly Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and some Spanish names.If you enter your first 12 markers at ysearch with a mismatch of one you will find all your relatives, from about 3000 + years ago.

[Clochaire]

I have a 100 "25"marker matches on my home page at FTDNA.I am two of the AMH modal, so I dont read too much into it.Most of the people didnt upload to ysearch, so I dont know where their ancestors came from, but are mostly Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and some Spanish names.If you enter your first 12 markers at ysearch with a mismatch of one you will find all your relatives, from about 3000 + years ago.

An ceart ar fad agat, a Chiarain.

Good points. One should be careful not yo read too much into these "loose matches"--especially if you're close to a prominent modal. Except my goofy 447/437/448, I'm pretty close to the Dal Riada modal.

But, until I git lucky as Miles here, with a tight match, I figure all I can do is look for big-picture patterns.

And now that you mention it, I do have a similar set of low-level, 2nd tier of "loose matches" on SGF that seem weird--LOTS of Spanish names. While these matches are even less impressive (ie, 27/35 and thereabouts) than the Scots I mentioned above, the sheer volume of Spanish names impressed me--like the Madrid telephone directory.

Maybe these patterns for you and me are distant echoes of the Milesians leaving Spain?

Jack

[derinos]

Irealand-Wales migrations.

I'm 3/8 Irish ancestry but received a higher DNA Tribes score for Wales than for Ireland. I have no known Welsh ancestry. I did receive some small scores for Scottish but I do have a small amount of Scot. ancestry. Maybe the distinctions among the various Celtic groups are too close to be distinguished in the tests. Judy

Response: Recent history explains. The facing coasts of Brythonic Wales-Cornwall, and Gaelic Ireland recorded periods of significant local exchanges of population, particularly in AD400 to 800, today reflected in some placenames ( eg, in north Wales, Porth Dinllaen-"Port of the Leinstermen") ; in stories like "Tristan and Isolde", and the career of St Patrick. Croeso i chwi, cyfaell Jaranta! (Welcome, friend!)

[GhostX]

If you enter your first 12 markers at ysearch with a mismatch of one you will find all your relatives, from about 3000 + years ago.

Well, that depends on your specific haplotype... It's very possible for somebody to be an 11/12, or even a 12/12 match, and not even be the slightest bit related. They could be in entirely different haplogroups (or even entirely different paragroups), and the markers could just happen to be the same due to random convergences. It may not be especially likely to turn out that way, but it is certainly statistically possible.

It's for that reason that I put very little stock in 12-marker test results, and consider them next to useless except in a few cases of a shared uncommon surname with some rare shared mutations in those 12 markers. 37 markers is the minimum that I would use to try to come to any confident conclusions about common ancestry.

[Stevo]

I guess things could change as more results come in, but thus far the newly-discovered SNP L21 is making a difference between Ireland and Iberia, in which Ireland appears to be overwhelmingly L21+ while Iberia is mostly L21-.

We are six for six so far on Iberians tested for L21, all of them negative.

[Clochaire]

I guess things could change as more results come in, but thus far the newly-discovered SNP L21 is making a difference between Ireland and Iberia, in which Ireland appears to be overwhelmingly L21+ while Iberia is mostly L21-.

We are six for six so far on Iberians tested for L21, all of them negative.

How old is L21 supposed to be?

This may be an oppotune moment to ask.

Casting aside for the moment my reservations regarding either the accuracy of traditional accounts of the Gaedhil, or validity of conventional SNP histories, I will posit that comparison of age of L21 and its distribution in Ireland to traditional dates of Melisius' coming to Ireland could be very informative.

I admit that I do not have full command of the facts at the tips of my fingers, but perhaps this is lucky--I can reduce my bias in this way.

How old is L21 supposed to be? And PLEASE don't tell me that the age of L21 is inferred by typical GD from a modal haplotype. Too many problems there.

Jack

[Zaru]

I'm a first generation Irish-American, with a native Irish name, MacEochadha (Kehoe) and my matches are, by far, more Scots than Irish. Any other Irish guys having the same experience?

I have no matches better than 30/37 or 54/67 at those markers, but have had one 25/25 match with a Scots name "Greenlee" for a while. Recently I checked Ancestry.com and found a 34/34 match with a Greenlee unknown to the 25/25 match. The 25/25 Greenlee says his family came from Ireland, but he is uncertain about which County. There was a "Greenley" family in a parish nearby my family's parish in County Wexford, and this family emigrated to Canada in the early 1800s. I also have collateral male relations of my Y line who came to North America as early as 1880.

Any guesses about this 34/34 match and my relationship to these Greenlees? Is this looking like an NPE or do some Irish simply match up with Scots more than they do with Irish? Does anyone know which 46 markers Ancestry uses? I could order them seperately from FTDNA and see how the match hold up.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe FSH3F

This is not surprising at all due to your surname. A surname beginning with "Mac" is derived from Scotland, it means "son of", in Ireland it is "Mc," those in Ireland/Scotland with surnames beginning with "Fitz" can trace their roots through Normandy and quite possibly back to Scandinavia.

It not a 100% guarantee of course, due to non paternal events, etc. but surnames can also implicate deep ancestry. The Sicilian surnames are quite diverse as they can implicate Arabic,Jewish,French (Norman),Spanish,Roman,Greek,Albanian, English, Turkish or other ancestries.

I am currently working on an etymology-linguistic project for some Anglo/Norman surnames-it is pretty fascinating.

[GhostX]

A surname beginning with "Mac" is derived from Scotland, it means "son of", in Ireland it is "Mc,"

That's actually a very common misconception. The original form of Mc in Ireland was Mac, and there were Mac names in Ireland long before they migrated to Scotland. My own Irish surname is a Mac name, and it dates back to the 11th century A.D. there.

It's true that Mc names are more common in Ireland in modern times than in Scotland (which may be the point you were making, Zaru), but it's nothing but a simple abbreviation of Mac, and has nothing to do with their derivation.

[Stevo]

How old is L21 supposed to be?

This may be an oppotune moment to ask.

Casting aside for the moment my reservations regarding either the accuracy of traditional accounts of the Gaedhil, or validity of conventional SNP histories, I will posit that comparison of age of L21 and its distribution in Ireland to traditional dates of Melisius' coming to Ireland could be very informative.

I admit that I do not have full command of the facts at the tips of my fingers, but perhaps this is lucky--I can reduce my bias in this way.

How old is L21 supposed to be? And PLEASE don't tell me that the age of L21 is inferred by typical GD from a modal haplotype. Too many problems there.

Jack

No, no modal haplotypes involved. As I understand it, L21 is estimated to be about 3,500 years old based on the interclade variance method (which uses observed father-to-son mutation rates) employed by Ken Nordtvedt, Anatole Klyosov, Vince Vizachero and others.

A friend of mine (Rick Arnold) has suggested a possible L21 scenario based
on his reading of Henri Hubert's old book, The Rise of the Celts.
Apparently Hubert wrote that the Goidels once inhabited NW Germany but left for the British Isles lock, stock and barrel during the Bronze Age. Hubert
found similarities in the layout of some Bronze Age NW German farms and
Irish farms (as opposed to the usual German farm layout) and certain
artifacts common to both Britain and NW Germany such as flanged axes with
hammered and incised decorations, flat-tanged swords, and certain kinds of
brooches and torques, as well as other items.

I realize Hubert's work is somewhat dated, but at least he, unlike most
modern authors, would countenance the idea of some sort of migration. I
haven't read his books yet, but I just ordered the two-volume set on the
Celts from Amazon and am looking forward to its arrival.

[Clochaire]

No, no modal haplotypes involved. As I understand it, L21 is estimated to be about 3,500 years old based on the interclade variance method (which uses observed father-to-son mutation rates) employed by Ken Nordtvedt, Anatole Klyosov, Vince Vizachero and others...

Awesome! This is exactly the type of information I'd looked for unsuccessfully in earlier discussions of SNP history!

So, I will be interested in finding out whether the book addresses the legendary migrations from Spain or implications of the age of this SNP for refining STR-based TMRCA models...

Jack