Semitic people

[bob_chasm]

Yes, that is what I would expect: a north - south gradient with more J2 in the north and more J1 in the south (as Jim has noted, there is an important exception with a J1 line in the north). The indication of a neolithic pattern in Saudi Arabia might suggest some Y dna J2 in the area. The historical record indicates that northern Arabia was settled first which fits the pattern of neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. If J2 is present, it is probably more common among the northern Adnanites.

So how does the neolithic expansion of J2 into Arabia square with APP's conclusion, that "3- It is more believed now that J1 haplogroup is the only Arab haplogroup including both of its main subgroups Qahtanite tribes and Adnanite tribes."?

[derinos]

Arabic language definitions?

Yes, that is what I would expect: a north - south gradient with more J2 in the north and more J1 in the south (as Jim has noted, there is an important exception with a J1 line in the north). The indication of a neolithic pattern in Saudi Arabia might suggest some Y dna J2 in the area. The historical record indicates that northern Arabia was settled first which fits the pattern of neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. If J2 is present, it is probably more common among the northern Adnanites.

The arguments discussed below on this thread are relevant and informant, but I note the point made by Jim Honeychuck about debating logic being handled differently by Arabic speakers.
We English-speakers can drift into similar logical deviations, when we adopt terms from other disciplines to explain genomics.

"Arabs" to me means "speakers of an Arabic language", which is not a genetic but a cultural classification. To say one of given haplogroup is "not an Arab" is stretching the logic.
Then what exactly is "neolithic expansion"? It used to be defined as "archaeologic findings of geographical spread of a certain identified level of stone-toolmaking complexity". Again, not a genetic but a cultural classification. Atkins showed that the European spread of neolithic culture involved only a 20% genetic contribution, so genetics do not confidently predict the (past) acquisition of a culture. And vice versa.

Arabic logic? I am informed that English translatory study of the Koran, only partly due to lossy archaic language, reveals a level of precision more resembling the poetry of Dylan Thomas, than a philosophic text.This may explain the wide variation of intrasectarian interpretations by imams, as well as the intense emotional separation of sects like Shia, Sunni and Wahabbi. (The AV of the Old Testament Bible is not immune to this critique.)
Conclusion? Borrowed terms from other disciplines call for redefinition.( Unless you are an Arab?)

[derinos]

Timescale as backdrop for J1.

I have a copy of Semino et al. 2004, and not only does it not say that, the word "Semitic" is not used even once in that paper.

Figure 1 gives the age of J-M267 (J1) as 24,100 years plus or minus 9,400 years. Neither Semitic nor any other language family is as old as that.

Regards,
Jim

I am attempting to mentally unify the time backdrop and terminology triggered by the post:



Result: The paleoanthropic timescale of this genomic and cultural discussion
looks like this:

40,000 ybp Neanderthal "Medicine man" burial, with pouch of herbs, Shanidar, Iraq.

29,000 ybp Welsh Red-Paint cave burial,"Red Lady of Paviland", Cromagnon type mammoth hunter.MtDNA "H", Paviland, Gower. Language? "Paleolithic" Sorry!

20.000 ybp Last Glacial Maximum.

10,000 ybp estimated arrival of protoSemitic language speakers into Middle East; from North.
Approximate dating of Jericho, by Tower foundations.
NEOLITHIC tool-culture slowly spreads in all directions from ?
Sumer, Uruk (?) civilizations followed by Akkad, Babylon. Inscriptions in Semitic and "other"? orthographies.

5,000 ybp Iceman "Oetzi" in Tyrol. MtDNA "k"

4,400 ybp a subSemitic "Eblan" language, rendered as Sumerian wedge script, found in great clay tabletlibrary at Ebla ( now Tell Mardikh; translation Work continues,includes poetry later reproduced in Bible as "Song of Solomon.)

4000 ybp Sargon of Akkad; conquests of Ebla, Mari, etc.
Babylonian citizen Abraham (as Avram),leaves Babylon with his copious herds,for a tour of Egypt and Palestine.His wife Sara, represented as his sister and is courted by Abumelech king of the Philistines and also by the Pharaoh. He founds a monotheism, partly copied by Pharaoh Ikhnaton soon after. The religion retains the Babylonian calendar.

3400 ybp Moses rescues a captive tribe of Habiru (nomads) from indentured bondage in Egypt and founds a tribal nationality.

2800ybp Judean hegenomy, David,Solomon.

ca2500ybp Persian hegenomy. Is Farsi a semitic language?
The rest is "recent" history....

It looks as if these people had enough opportunity to develop Semitic language subdialects, and multiple religions and technologies; so we had better define them as J1, not strain too hard to classify them into other disciplines.

[s trangsrud]

Indo-European. 2nd-cousin to Hindi & Urdu. Cousin to Kurdish.

ca2500ybp Persian hegenomy. Is Farsi a semitic language?

[josh w.]

Certainly Zallua of the National Geographic Phoenician Project would dispute the claim that speaking Arabic makes one an Arab.

I don't think that anyone challenges the assertion that J2 is present in Adnanite Arabs. The issue is whether it is present among southern Arabs.

[derinos]

What is an arab?

This is a sincere pursuit of knowledge, Josh, so I ask "what is your own definition of an Arab?"
Also, what would you say is Mr Zallua's definition?

[josh w.]

I would use a restricted definition defining only someone from the Arabian Peninsula as 'Arab'. For other peoples I would use terms such as 'Arabized' or Arabic speaking.
I believe Dr. Zallua is a Lebanese Christian, a part of the Lebanese population that did not welcome the spread of Arabic Islam. On the other hand, as Zallua has noted, some of the Lebanese population is of Arab origin. The same is the case with Palestinians.

[bob_chasm]

Arab

I would use a restricted definition defining only someone from the Arabian Peninsula as 'Arab'. For other peoples I would use terms such as 'Arabized' or Arabic speaking.

I believe Dr. Zallua is a Lebanese Christian, a part of the Lebanese population that did not welcome the spread of Arabic Islam. On the other hand, as Zallua has noted, some of the Lebanese population is of Arab origin. The same is the case with Palestinians.

How about defining an Arab as someone who speaks Arabic and identifies him or herself as an Arab? As far as Dr. Zallua is concerned doesnt he speak Aramaic or French, as a non Arab Christian? Coming back to the subject at hand, the AP Project claims all Adnanite and Qahtanite Arab tribes were J1

[josh w.]

Lebanese Maronite Christians usually speak Arabic but they use Aramaic for church services. There are only a handfull of everyday Aramaic speakers in the general area. For the most part, French would be a second language.

I am puzzled by the AP project's position since they report some SNP defined J2 in their Results section. Wikipedia also states that J2 is found in northern Arabia, but the report does not list a reference. See also Cacio's post on AP studies outside Saudi Arabia. It would be more accurate to say that Arabian tribes are primarily J1 within J.

[bob_chasm]

Lebanese Maronite Christians usually speak Arabic but they use Aramaic for church services. There are only a handfull of everyday Aramaic speakers in the general area. For the most part, French would be a second language.

I am puzzled by the AP project's position since they report some SNP defined J2 in their Results section. Wikipedia also states that J2 is found in northern Arabia, but the report does not list a reference. See also Cacio's post on AP studies outside Saudi Arabia. It would be more accurate to say that Arabian tribes are primarily J1 within J.

You may remember the past Administrator of the AP project, Shabani, was himself a J2. Perhaps its a problem of poor english. I am surprized nobody at ftdna has helped them.

As far as the Maronites are concerned, if they use Aramaic in their churches, then, I think most people can understand why they dont consider themselves Arabs. I think the same thing can be said about Coptics in Egypt.