Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

That full genomic sequence haplogroup T project

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I agree with you Deirwha= and perhaps for that reason I don't think anyone should be attacking other people's goals unless they REALLY know what they are talking about. Otherwise, I'll end up just not posting anything that I know or think if it isn't enjoyable anymore - and there are plenty of people who might have benefited from seeing those posts.

    Comment


    • #17
      well if you go there

      I will give you my private email because I have benefited.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by penguin
        I agree with you Deirwha= and perhaps for that reason I don't think anyone should be attacking other people's goals unless they REALLY know what they are talking about. Otherwise, I'll end up just not posting anything that I know or think if it isn't enjoyable anymore - and there are plenty of people who might have benefited from seeing those posts.
        Penguin, as you might recall, many of us (including you) had a lengthy discussion of what we hoped to get out of the T FGS Project at its inception. You were the person who essentially said that she would not participate because she was not being financially compensated for the research value of her mtDNA results. Your hostility to the Project at the time was quite surprising to me personally.

        Now you allege people are attacking your goals when they largely consist of piggy-backing on the results of others that will not necessarily match your own?!

        Floyd and I simply pointed out that other people's results may not be personally applicable. Finding out that someone who is an HVR match has a potentially harmful mutation would certainly concern me while waiting for my own test. Neither comment represents an attack on your goals of any sort.

        John

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Johnserrat
          Penguin, as you might recall, many of us (including you) had a lengthy discussion of what we hoped to get out of the T FGS Project at its inception. You were the person who essentially said that she would not participate because she was not being financially compensated for the research value of her mtDNA results. Your hostility to the Project at the time was quite surprising to me personally.

          Now you allege people are attacking your goals when they largely consist of piggy-backing on the results of others that will not necessarily match your own?!

          Floyd and I simply pointed out that other people's results may not be personally applicable. Finding out that someone who is an HVR match has a potentially harmful mutation would certainly concern me while waiting for my own test. Neither comment represents an attack on your goals of any sort.

          John
          On the first point, my argument was that the project cleverly had a "tom sawyer like please let me do your chores" thing going. They shrwedly convinced people to pay to be a research subject, rather than the other way around. It's as if I have you repair my garbage disposal, but then instead of paying you, I expect you to pay me for the privelege of getting to work on my shiny disposal! So I did not like the way they advertised their project. I also thought many who were signing up were unaware of some of the consequences of signing the consent form. You only get one mito DNA code, and can only give it away once-so decide wisely if this is the time you want to do so. Once it's out there, that's it, and anyone can use it.

          on the second item, yes! I will definitely piggyback on those who chose to participate. Like I said, once it's out there, anyone can - and will- use the data. me included!

          On the third item, I may have overeacting, but I saw it as a criticim, not just pointing out something that I might have missed. and to me, cutting down other peoples ideas without offering some of ones own is a combo that pushes buttons.

          incidentallly, you were surprised by my comments on the project, but i was surprised by your and others reaction to my dissenting opinion. it was like if not everyone jumps on the bandwagon, then they get jumped on. that happens in some of the threads in this forum, though not all. On the issue of having already discussed individuals goals, i'll go back and read it again, but my recollection is that comments rarely went beyond the very general "let's learn more about T". I was hoping that with further time, specific goals for those who joined the project or who have just thought more about it would crystalize and we could have a good discussion.

          on overreaction, I suspect that i'm not the only one who overreacted. i.e. I think my attack on the project was viewed by some as an attack on their decision and they got defensive. I was trying to warn those who had not yet signed on to do their homework and make an informed decision.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by penguin
            On the first point, my argument was that the project cleverly had a "tom sawyer like please let me do your chores" thing going. They shrwedly convinced people to pay to be a research subject, rather than the other way around. It's as if I have you repair my garbage disposal, but then instead of paying you, I expect you to pay me for the privelege of getting to work on my shiny disposal! So I did not like the way they advertised their project. I also thought many who were signing up were unaware of some of the consequences of signing the consent form. You only get one mito DNA code, and can only give it away once-so decide wisely if this is the time you want to do so. Once it's out there, that's it, and anyone can use it.

            on the second item, yes! I will definitely piggyback on those who chose to participate. Like I said, once it's out there, anyone can - and will- use the data. me included!

            On the third item, I may have overeacting, but I saw it as a criticim, not just pointing out something that I might have missed. and to me, cutting down other peoples ideas without offering some of ones own is a combo that pushes buttons.

            incidentallly, you were surprised by my comments on the project, but i was surprised by your and others reaction to my dissenting opinion. it was like if not everyone jumps on the bandwagon, then they get jumped on. that happens in some of the threads in this forum, though not all. On the issue of having already discussed individuals goals, i'll go back and read it again, but my recollection is that comments rarely went beyond the very general "let's learn more about T". I was hoping that with further time, specific goals for those who joined the project or who have just thought more about it would crystalize and we could have a good discussion.

            on overreaction, I suspect that i'm not the only one who overreacted. i.e. I think my attack on the project was viewed by some as an attack on their decision and they got defensive. I was trying to warn those who had not yet signed on to do their homework and make an informed decision.
            So, basically you said anybody who paid to be part of a research project to further knowledge about our haplogroup is a big sap. Now you're saying you're going to piggyback on the results of all the saps who helped to further knowledge for your personal goals, whatever they may be. So, at least be thankful that scores of us ignored your reasoning and became the saps you're piggybacking on now.

            OK. I'll answer your original question. My personal goal was to further knowledge of the haplogroup. Once the study is published, that goal will be accomplished. I did find that I am T2, not the non-existent T5, which is what was expected. And I found that I am a T2 with no coding region mutations beyond the two CR mutations that define T2. So now I know my maternal line hasn't had a CR mutation in thousands of years, which is interesting. I also found that I have a couple of matches for CR mutations in scientific studies, one unidentified and one from the Republic of Georgia. And when the study is published, I will be very interested to see the tree and where various people with various ancestries sit on it.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MMaddi
              So, basically you said anybody who paid to be part of a research project to further knowledge about our haplogroup is a big sap.
              .
              Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said anyone who participated was a sap. My anger was towards the researchers who behaved in my opinion irresponsibly and sneakily (I am a researcher myself, so I know about the consenting process and other protocols); that was part of my decision not to be a reseach subject. If anyone made a sound decision based on the info they had - that's great, that's all anyone can do with decisions.
              The more info people have to make a decision, the better, and I was giving info that I had that others might not otherwise have.

              As far as I know, no one refuses to read or use a published research article because they disagree with the researchers- so of course I will use the study.
              penguin
              FTDNA Customer
              Last edited by penguin; 9 August 2008, 12:10 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Two cents

                Cent 1. I would love to know more about the report you all are discussing. I have known I am T less than a month. It is still exciting to me to learn and I do not have a lot of preconceived notions I would not gladly drop for better info.

                Cent 2. Being new to the dialogue I have learned valuable information, or at least I think it is valuable from both all sides of the debate that seems to have surfaced. A little like Georgia and Russia from my point of view. I have noticed frequently on forums concerning genetics two interrelated phenomena that really kind of bother me. First, like all forms of email, it seems that people often feel freer to give it to each other both barrels between the eyes than those same people would in person. Kinda like putting a tiny person behind the wheel of a truck. Perfectly lovely people go around hurting each others feelings constantly and with great zingers in a way they would not do otherwise. It is a shame. Second, what I have seen thus far of all the theories and data out there is an undue sense of got it rightedness. As a young lawyer I had it drilled in my head that the difference between a successful prosecutor and a failure was understanding what was a fact in evidence and what was merely one of many inferences from the fact in evidence. Prosecutors routinely lost because they did not have the mental discipline to set up a chain of evidence that eliminated all other inference. Frankly, regardless of haplogroup, what I have read thus far has much of the young prosecutor's flavor to it. We are in 8 track stage of what may one day become iPod. I think we owe each other a certain amount of deference, respect and humility recognizing how much today's "knowledge" will be tomorrow's "can you believe they thought that."

                My two cents for the day. I do not mean to initiate a conflict with anyone. I am just frankly tired of seeing harsh statement of I got it and you don't emerge in these posts. I am disgusted enough to consider dropping this whole business and sticking to my haplogroup list, who also have some of it going on. Can we stop censuring each other and start learning from our unique perspectives?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by penguin
                  Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said anyone who participated was a sap. My anger was towards the researchers who behaved in my opinion irresponsibly and sneakily (I am a researcher myself, so I know about the consenting process and other protocols); that was part of my decision not to be a reseach subject. If anyone made a sound decision based on the info they had - that's great, that's all anyone can do with decisions.
                  The more info people have to make a decision, the better, and I was giving info that I had that others might not otherwise have.

                  As far as I know, no one refuses to read or use a published research article because they disagree with the researchers- so of course I will use the study.
                  You're quite right that you never used the word "sap" to describe those who paid to be part of the project. I never said you used that word. That was my characterization of the implication of your criticism of the project as the basis for a study. Basically, your attitude seemed to be that no one should pay to be part of a scientific project, that their mtDNA and the results of their testing belonged to them. So, I just took the next step and used the term "sap" because it would seem that, if I accepted your argument, I should consider myself a fool for paying to be tested and participate in the project.

                  But then FTDNA did agree to give participants a 20% discount in the cost of testing, which amounted to about $90. That's not a small sum of money. And I'll point out again that if everyone had agreed with your reasoning and refused to pay to be part of this study, you wouldn't have any CR mutations to look at when the study is published.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MMaddi
                    But then FTDNA did agree to give participants a 20% discount in the cost of testing, which amounted to about $90. That's not a small sum of money. And I'll point out again that if everyone had agreed with your reasoning and refused to pay to be part of this study, you wouldn't have any CR mutations to look at when the study is published.
                    I would have CR (coding regions) mutations to look at, but it would probably take a little longer and/or require a little more scrounging. If they didn't have enuf subjects this way, they would have pursued standard routes, gotten grants, and so forth and the study would be done that way. Or someone else would have beaten them too it and done it - holes in the field are getting filled pretty rapidly. Or I"d hunt and peck a variety of studies to see if they included any Ts in their FGS testing- kind of like I do now. I would not have minded waiting the extra year or doing the hunting, especially in the name of having it sit better.

                    the 20% discount is fine. If the break of paying 360 instead of 450 was the reason or one of the reasons you or anyone else decided this was right exchange rate for your code, then great. I do agree that the extra $90 can make the difference between being able to afford it or not and I can see why someone might weigh all the factors and decide that all things considered that this is how they want to do it. As long as people realize everything, then that's fine- "Informed consent" is a critical part of the research process and as I keep saying I did not feel that everyone who were contacted received as much information as they should have received in order to give informed consent-perhaps you and others who post on this forum were exceptions-I have no idea.

                    All I can do is repeat that I did not intend to accuse you of anything.

                    Dierwha: did you get your results thru family tree dna? check your results page (and maybe email?) and see if there's any info there on a T project.
                    Also check family tree dna further testing options so you can see the full mitochondrial sequencing option, which I think is currently $450 without discount. (normally if you order your full mitochondria sequence, the results go only to you and you can do with it whatever you like; if you join the project, the results are also published by the researchers; I forget who owns the rights to put your own sequence on Genbank if you join the project -you or the rsearchers - or if they place any constrainst on your doing that)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thanks

                      Just got my results from FTDNA in the past 3 or so weeks. Low Resolution level. I will check out the page. I was planning on upgrading to the HVR2. Do you recommend the full sequence instead?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by penguin
                        Also check family tree dna further testing options so you can see the full mitochondrial sequencing option, which I think is currently $450 without discount. (normally if you order your full mitochondria sequence, the results go only to you and you can do with it whatever you like; if you join the project, the results are also published by the researchers; I forget who owns the rights to put your own sequence on Genbank if you join the project -you or the rsearchers - or if they place any constrainst on your doing that)
                        Your results are yours to do what you want with them, including uploading the full sequence to Genbank. I uploaded my results there. I did check with David Pike, the project administrator, about uploading my results before his study is published. He had no objection to that and just asked that I give him the accession number.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Deirwha
                          Just got my results from FTDNA in the past 3 or so weeks. Low Resolution level. I will check out the page. I was planning on upgrading to the HVR2. Do you recommend the full sequence instead?
                          For most people, HVR2 does not add very much- it depends on what your HVR1 mutations are (and how many matches you have). Full sequence usefulness also depends on how many matches you currently have and what youre hoping to find out. I know you posted on that, so i'll try to reread that. Did you say you were T1? if yes, you definietly want to talk to Valery and/or read his posts; you can also ask him if he thinks youll learn anything with further tests and which to choose and why. He's a Russian T1 researcher who knows his stuff (ocassional language barrier).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thank you Penguin

                            Yes, I am T1b I believe (because I match 5 cousins who had the same maternal line and they did high resolution matches which came out T1b). My mother's line represents an interesting micro problem. There is no dearth of records back to the 17th century, but for the reason they lived all that time on a tiny island in the Atlantic and were Puritans who kept their records at the local church. But genetically there is the challenge that all this time they intermarried constantly and all I know about them before they came to the islands is that they came from the South West of England.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X