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That full genomic sequence haplogroup T project

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  • That full genomic sequence haplogroup T project

    Got some generic email to all T's saying (if I remember correctly) that August will be the last month that theyll be taking data for their research study. I wonder how long it will take them to analyze data (fast) and write it up (a bit slower) and get it accepted for publication (probably not too long). Wonder if we'll learn anything from it. They say a goal is the get a nomenclature which is consistent with both control region and coding region classifications. They point out, as we all know, that categorization from control region is from T1 to T5, but from coding region, it's T1 and T2 only.

    Curious as to whether there are any specific questions other T's are hoping will be answered by the study. For instance, in my case, it looks like 1 person with my non-so common sequence signed on. So i'll look at her (I'm pretty sure it's a her) coding region mutations in the appendix when the article comes out and see if there's anything intersting - like medical mutations, or mutations that match a particular ethnic subgroup i've been following. If the former is yes, I'll likely get mine done to see if I have that important mutation of interst too. If the latter, her dna would probably suffice to answer that question and I don't need to test mine. I suppose i'll also verify if that sequence has the relevent mutations that lead T5s to be reclassified as a subbranch of T2 (which it likely will along with other former T5s).

    What about others? any specific answers youre waiting for?

  • #2
    T questions on the mind

    I did not know. I only recently have a low resolution T*. However, there are 5 matches who I know personally, who are cousins, who come from the same grandmother, who are T1b. In the Bahamas. Their and my maternal ancestors come from the Bahamas much of the last 400 years. I am told that the basic families came to the Bahamas on the Mayflower in the 1600's, sailing out of Plymouth, UK. However, they came from families in Somerset, Devon, Berkshire,etc. and have some connection to the Duke of Monmouth (like soldiers or navy in his service). I want to know how DNA associated very much with the Balkans and Northeastern Europe came to England and from there to the Bahamas. I want to know how it is that my matches outside of the Bahamas are in Italy, Spain, Syria, and Germany rather than the UK. I want to know the trail that led from the Balkans to the UK.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Deirwha
      ...I am told that the basic families came to the Bahamas on the Mayflower in the 1600's, sailing out of Plymouth, UK. However, they came from families in Somerset, Devon, Berkshire,etc. and have some connection to the Duke of Monmouth (like soldiers or navy in his service). I want to know how DNA associated very much with the Balkans and Northeastern Europe came to England and from there to the Bahamas....
      I'm just punting here, but I think this may not be so strange.

      1. You already mentioned Duke of
      Monmouth. I believe you are referring to the failed rebellion in 1600's, which had its focal point in the very S.E. England counties you mentioned.

      Last time I was in Donegal, Ireland, visiting the town where some of my father's collateral relations came from, a local who seemed to have a lot of the old lore told me something relevant. He told me that this little town was used as a staging point to ship Irish off to Barbados and slavery, after failure of Eoghan Ruadh O'Neill rebellion. This was about 50 yrs before the Monmouth thing. Maybe some Cornish were similarly punished w/ deportation to Bahamas?

      2. I admit I don't have much experience in the mtDNA thing, but an analogy to Y haplogroup R1a occurs to me. In Britain, this HG is associated w/ Viking invasions, and not really tightly concentrated from a geographic point of view. It also seems to be current thinking that R1a originated in Balkans.

      Maybe relative rarity of the mtDNA HG in Britain is reflective of incentive of Viking settlers to marry local girls? Maybe your mtDNA HG is indication that you descend from a rich Viking--one rich enough to attract a girl from the 'old country' anyhow!

      Cloud talk, maybe. But something to think about.

      Jack

      Comment


      • #4
        yep

        I am told some come to the Bahamas as an alternative to hanging.

        But the T1b mtDNA haplogroup is associated with Eastern Europe. It does show up in UK. How did it get there.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Deirwha
          ...
          But the T1b mtDNA haplogroup is associated with Eastern Europe. It does show up in UK. How did it get there.
          Let me flesh out the hypothesis I started in #2 of my original post in this thread. Given patriarchal orientation of our historical record, I don't know if it could ever be definitively proven, but I think this is as good an explanation as you're likely to get:

          Your T1b Mito-granny originated in the Balkans, and she had a Y-cousin named R1a, who also originated in the Balkans.

          The descendants of T1b and R1a migrated through Eastern Europe and up into Scandinavia. These descendants probably tended to live in many of the same communities and occasionally intermarry.

          Around 800's AD, the bottom falls out of the Scandinavian economy, and necessity gives rise to a new industry--Viking raids overseas. Y descendants of R1a become established in Britain.

          Naturally, this violent, desparate type of activity is more attractive to more marginal elements of Scandinavian society.

          Most poor R1a boys born in Scandinavia consider themselves pretty lucky to scrape by on small farms stolen from British natives. But No way would any self-respecting T1b girl want to go over to the edge of the earth to scrape by on some dirt farm hundreds of miles away from her own people.

          As it turns out, this is just fine for 1st generation R1a Brit. He finds that the very murder which secured his new farm for him has also reduced competion to marry local girls.

          Where does your T1b ancestor come in? Here: Not ALL of these R1a guys are desperately poor. In fact, one of them is the younger son of a well-off chieftain--and your ancestor (though not necessarily in direct male line).

          Although he has some resources at his command at home, he has a very ambitious nature, and enjoys the high prestige the poorer R1a settlers in Britain accord him. He is very successful in Britain.

          So, finally, when he decides that his wild raiding days are over, and that he will settle down as bigshot in Britain, he drives his late model longship back to Scandinavia to pick up his T1b trophy wife--your mtDNA ancestor.

          It's a rare Viking who has the scratch to do what your R1a ancestor did, so T1b will always be much rarer in Britain than R1a.

          The end(?)

          Jack

          Comment


          • #6
            so let's think of whether this project might help answer this question. Say in generating the tree, it uncovers a subset of T1b that characterizes your family. I guess you can then look to see how it's related to the Eastern European T1b branch of the tree; it should indicate if yours came after, before, or in parallel with that branch; i.e., did some woman go from eastern europe to england, from england to eastern europe, or did 2 women go in parallel from the original T1 location (which is ?) with 1 to england and 1 to eastern europe? The analysis should indicate which of those 3 possiblities it is. It might also identify those coding region SNPs that are unique to the England branch (or just your family branch).

            And if there aren't any unique to your family/England (no unique subset of T1b that defines you/English subbranch), that would be interesting as well - that instead may start to suggest as other poster was suggesting that the real maternal ancestor was not English at all (even if your paternal ancestor was).

            But I know with other Ts, we've all concluded they sure did get around, when we look for instance at the variety of different places T5s have come from. T is old. I guess more time to get all over europe.

            So unclear until there's more data. and the project might help.

            If I get a chance i'll look more at T1 and T1b. HOw many matches do you have besides your 5 known cousins?

            What other questions are other posters hoping this project will answer?

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you

              That actually was clear to me. And it would be worthwhile to not only me but to several people in the Bahamas project as well. I have 14 matches on the low resolution test with Recent estimated to be 2 Italy, 2 Spain, 1 Syria, 2 Eastern Germany.

              Comment


              • #8
                Jack's theory

                That too was clear, Jack, and the Scandinavian link plausible enough. I have known about the T all of 3 days now and just reading. My first reading talked all about Eastern Europe and my low resolution matches (other than my cousins) are from Italy, Spain, Syria, East Germany. Thanks for trying out the theory if for no other reason is it gives me a much better handle on T than I had before you mentioned it.
                Deirwha
                Registered User
                Last edited by Deirwha; 2 August 2008, 10:24 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Penguin, I don't think that the problem is in particular policies of the T FGS project. More likely, the reason not to disclose full results is a common belief that there are some "medical applications" of mtdna sequencing. Otherwise there will be no need in such projects - everyone may compare the data submitted to Genbank.
                  vraatyah
                  Registered User
                  Last edited by vraatyah; 3 August 2008, 08:01 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi V. - good to be conversing with you again! I'm not really understanding what you are saying though in refering to a problem. I didn't mention there was a problem with the project policies (on this posting anyway) and don't think I implied there was one.

                    When I said the appendix, I was refering to the fact that studies publish the full sequence of each subject there in the appendix or on-line or I guess these days just give the ascension number; yes for me, often getting the sequence from GenBank would be sufficient for many of my questions. But the sequences won't be up on GenBank presumably until the paper gets published or at least accepted for publication. And incidentally, when I don't have the ascension number, I have a hell of a hard time finding sequences that match what I need from GenBank. At some point I should straighten that all out, but so far I haven't.

                    So what am I missing- do you want to try again? not sure we're understanding each other yet on this one. And since you're a T also, are you hoping the study- either the raw data or the author's analyses - answers any questions for you?
                    penguin
                    FTDNA Customer
                    Last edited by penguin; 3 August 2008, 02:46 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by penguin
                      ............

                      Curious as to whether there are any specific questions other T's are hoping will be answered by the study. For instance, in my case, it looks like 1 person with my non-so common sequence signed on. So i'll look at her (I'm pretty sure it's a her) coding region mutations in the appendix when the article comes out and see if there's anything intersting - like medical mutations, or mutations that match a particular ethnic subgroup i've been following. If the former is yes, I'll likely get mine done to see if I have that important mutation of interst too. If the latter, her dna would probably suffice to answer that question and I don't need to test mine. I suppose i'll also verify if that sequence has the relevent mutations that lead T5s to be reclassified as a subbranch of T2 (which it likely will along with other former T5s). .........
                      I think it is a bit of a stretch to expect much from examining some else's Coding Region mutations based on a HVR match, even when "non-so-common." I'd be interested in comments by the mtDNA experts (I am not one of them).
                      Floyd Oakes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by fmoakes
                        I think it is a bit of a stretch to expect much from examining some else's Coding Region mutations based on a HVR match, even when "non-so-common." .
                        Floyd Oakes
                        Nonsense. In my case it's a rare type that in quite a big database of samples matches only a very few people, and importantly, all from one well-defined regional and ethnic subgroup. Won't be true of many people's mito dna mutations, but I got lucky in that regard. So I would be well served by taking notice if one of my control region matches has a particularly intersting coding region mutation.

                        so what are you hoping the study will tell you?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Based on my own experience, HVR matches do not necessarily hold up after the FGS. I now have no matches after the FGS.

                          So rather than relying on someone else's coding region mutations (which you may not even share!) and worrying yourself needlessly, get tested yourself.

                          John

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            john - but I'm guessing you had quite a few control region matches depending on how extensively you launched a search. and my recollection is that you don't have any particularly unique control region mutations, tho I don't have your sequence in front of me so i can't be certain on that point. Both of these points would increase the odds that yes, your control region matches would cease to be a match once you looked at coding regions. ditto for mostly everyone else in
                            T who has thus far posted on their control and coding region info. And a third point that would also be a factor is if your control region matches were all from a variety of different regional locations and/or ethnic backrounds. This would mean on the basis of oral history/ancestry, the odds that you will cease to be a close match once additional locations are tested go up.; i.e. you already have evidence that these "matches" are not quite so closely related to you before even testing your coding regions.

                            Who said anything about worrying myself at all, let alone needlessly? Doesn't even enter the equation. Information is instersting. And as I said in the original message, if my control region matches have interesting coding region mutations, I would then get my own coding region tested. And of course i'm aware that absense of intersting coding region mutations in my putative cousins does not mean that they are absent in mine as well. I have for quite a while suspected I could have a heteroplasmic coding region mutation with medical implications, though these can be tricky to measure if the mutated amount is a low %. (BTW, if the test was free, I would have gotten it ages ago, though not through a project so that I'd retain 100% ownership)

                            I find it interesting that many of you other T's have not answered the original question, but just diss other people's goals for waiting for the project results. Could it be you folk don't even know what you want to get out of the full genomic sequence project??! I fiind that pretty telling.
                            penguin
                            FTDNA Customer
                            Last edited by penguin; 7 August 2008, 12:37 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              yea, verily

                              my view is there is no supportable reason for any of us to feel particularly smug in our concept of what our DNA means. I am open to learning whatever is out there to learn. I feel in the voyage of DNA discovery much like the crew members of the Starship Enterprise. It is out there, whatever out there turns out to mean, the learning will be an adventure.

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